Once a year, on Anzac Day, April 25, hundreds of thousands of dedicated, patriotic Australians gather at solemn places of remembrance. Silence is observed, private thoughts are conducted, and The Last Post is played, eerily, by a lone bugler into the crisp morning air as the sun rises over what would otherwise be an innocuous Australian morning. Many of these noble souls are there to recognize the sacrifices of Australian service men and women over the years. Others are there to recognize the day we handed it to the Turks.
The battle of Gallipoli is celebrated by bogans across the land as one of, if not THE greatest military victory in our nation’s history. In one day – April 25 – Australian soldiers stormed the beaches at a heretofore little-known Turkish peninsula, and, without the assistance of any other soldiers from any other countries, proceeded to take significant chunks of enemy-held territory. Yes, there were significant casualties, but this merely enhances the ANZAC legend. Australians, and possibly some New Zealanders, fought hard, and proved to the rest of our WWII allies just how incredibly awesome we are at the business of making war.
However, these observances that take place on Anzac Day, recognizing such a stunning military victory, have bred an even greater act of memorialization. Today, bogans consider it something of a pilgrimage, a Hajj, if you will, to venture across the seas to these foreign shores, and to stand on the soil that their brethren fought, died, and kicked arse on. They awake, early on a Turkish spring morning, stand in silent recognition, as the Turks cede their own sacred land to the bogans’ desire for national pride, and listen to the Last Post. They then eat lunch, sink some piss, leave the rubbish, and go looking for some local tail. In pursuit of the new, 21st century, Australian military victory.
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LOL. At least it gives the Turks something to be thankful for too – the fact that their forebears DID win a victory that resulted in a bogan influx in late April only.
Uhm, that would be WWI, and not exactly a victory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satire – TBL
Isn’t that claim of ‘a victory’ the author being ironic about the lack of historical understanding of many people who attend at Gallipoli and the memorial services in Australia?
Or maybe it’s a moral victory?
I feel odd about this one as I had a great-great-uncle who changed a German surname and ran away at 16 to fight at Gallipoli with the Light Horse. He survived and came back to live a long life in Adelaide- there’s no accounting for taste. He was a classic Australian of that generation- never spoke about it, never went to a march. On the other side of the family I have two great-uncles who survived Changi- one goes to marches and is generally the RSL Member from central casting, the other doesn’t go to any of those events and avoids the RSl and his brother.
That’s all a bit authentic, though isn’t it? We’re really talking about an orgy of manufactured sentiment, and embroidered, idealised ‘history’ as the basis for a public emotional display and a piss-up, rather than a serious consideration of the horrors of war.
I assume # XX The Kokoda Trail is on the blocks.
Hiking on the kokoda trail is 101 % bogan stuff. Any hairy chested jingoism with zero understanding of the horrors of war is bogan stuff for sure.
hahhahahaa mate what are you TALKING about? you guys LOST the campaign. EVERYONE knows that. Even when you are briefly studying history outside of basic high school modern history, one of the big questions about australia is “Why do Australians celebrate Anzac Day when it was such a catastrophic loss?’
Maybe you should spend more time on googling researching your own history instead of trying to offend large sections of the australian public that are going about minding their own business.
People are at their stupidist when they try to appear smart.
People are at their dumbest when they “Think” they’re smart
Epic fail TurkishGal. Just epic.
Sigh. Missed the point.
Irony
i⋅ro⋅ny1 /ˈaɪrəni, ˈaɪər-/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ahy-ruh-nee, ahy-er-] –noun, plural -nies.
1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.
2. Literature. a. a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
b. (esp. in contemporary writing) a manner of organizing a work so as to give full expression to contradictory or complementary impulses, attitudes, etc., esp. as a means of indicating detachment from a subject, theme, or emotion.
3. Socratic irony.
4. dramatic irony.
5. an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.
6. the incongruity of this.
7. an objectively sardonic style of speech or writing.
8. an objectively or humorously sardonic utterance, disposition, quality, etc.
Fail.
Not understanding the irony in this post.
To be fair, the subtle art of irony appears to be moribund. It never really took off in North America, and then suffered a near fatal blow in 1995 when Alanis Morrisette decided that she didn’t like the real meaning of the word ‘ironic’, and applied it to describe shit like not being able to find a spoon when she really needed one, as well as the meteorlogical challenges many brides are faced with on their wedding day.
Unfortunately, The Gospel According To Alanis struck a chord with bogans, due mainly to the fact that they had always struggled to come to terms with irony. As such, they were happy to hijack the word ‘ironic’ to mean ‘minor inconvenience’. See TBL #26 – Malapropisms.
On the plus side, I applaud TurkishGal for assimilating enough into Australian society to learn some bogan customs.
Yep, just what Tone said.
I’M SICK OF PSEUDO-INTELLECTS REFERRING TO HOW THERE IS NO IRONY IN THAT SONG. Indeed, the subjects that she refers to are of themselves lacking in irony, but if a song dedicated to irony refers to ironic situations not even once, WOULD THAT NOT BE WHEREIN THE IRONY LIES?
Obviously we could argue the intention of the song-writer as to this result, but it would not change the result. Unintended irony is still just that – irony.
I agree wholeheartedly that the so-called less educated, have misinterpreted thing song as featuring ironic situations, but the educated have made a similar misinterpretation, making them appear just as foolish.
If a blog entitled ‘The Australian Victory at Gallipoli’ which does not refer to any such victory is acclaimed as an ironic masterpiece, should not also a song entitled ‘Ironic’, when it features no references to irony???
haha, I remember in High School English, the teacher was trying to explain the meaning of ironic, and I laughed and said ‘have you heard the new Alanis Morrisette song? it uses all these examples to define ironic, which aren’t even ironic.. how Ironic..hahaha’ and she proceeded to put it on and rave to the class about how all the examples perfectly embodied Irony, and they lapped it up and said how wrong I was.
ah, Rural schools, nothing quite like them.
This person Tone hits the nail on the head every time.
Tell that to Mr Play-It-Safe who was afraid to fly, when his plane crashed down after kissing his kids good-bye.
That may be considered a case of “irony” under definition 6, “an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected.”
Or alternatively, Mr Play-It-Safe may have watched the Secret and sent vibes to the Universe causing the plane to crash from his negative energy. In which case, it was expected and not ironic.
Or thirdly, that definition (6) may have only been included as a result of Ms Morrisette’s ‘malapropism’ being incorporated into colloquial language.
And lastly, who says TurkishGal isn’t being ironic, it’s often difficult to be ironic in written word, without context. We know what angle the TBL crew are coming from, we don’t know what angle TurkishGal is coming from. The joke may be on us.
yeh they got it wrong , theres no need to be an immature rude bitch about it , its nothing to be proud of….
oh dear….who said anything about “winning” turkish Gal ??
IT is about remembering those lost and what they died for, or thought they were dying for.IF people you know ask “why do they celebrate it” then obviously they are missing the point….
well it does say ‘the greatest military victory of our nation’s history’ – the word ‘winning’ may not have been written but…
At least you got rid of the Ottoman Empire, and got a secular democracy. Didn’t turn out so well for some minorities, though.
Fancy that … an empire made up entirely of padded footstools whose only other claim to fame is their rather quaint alternate name: ‘pouffe’.
The Pouffe Empire will never die!
I wouldn’t be so comfortable defaming an empire which was once the world’s most powerful. You will be shitting bricks when you look out the window one day and see masses of infantry undocking at your shores. They will MAKE you their “pouffe”…
The Kurds there are like the Aborigines here, no matter what happens, there will always be tension
the Armenians got nearly wiped out in Mustafa kemal’s Turkey.It was more than a massacre , it was a holocaust of Orthodox Christians.The Kurds are not much better off either.
You got proof for that Taariq?
Why dont you mind your own middle-eastern business there, rather than throw shit at Turks. We didnt massacre no armenian, we simply told them to leave because the Muslim Turks and Kurds were not happy getting attacked from behind while fighting the numerically superior Russians. Look at your own country’s problems before throwing shit at Turks.
at the risk of repeating everyone else, miss the point much? Bogan
The author was being sarcastic about the lack of understanding of Australian Military History among the bogan species. The author was also perhaps pointing out that Bogans ‘celebrate’ Anzac day, while the rest of Australia ‘remembers’ it.
Lest we forget, not lest we forget to party.
Interestingly, I have lectured to Australian Army Reserve Officer Cadets on Australian Military History and was dumbfounded by their poor understanding of the Dardanelles Campaign. As a group, these young trainee officers were uncertain whether we were actually defeated by the Turks. They all knew about the fabulously successful strategic withdrawal from Gallipoli (especially the importance of the self-firing rifle left to confuse the enemy), but couldn’t explain what our objective was or why we invaded Turkey in the first place. Interestingly, most assumed that Australian fought the campaign alone (with a bit of help from a few mates from New Zealand) and were unaware that our British, Irish, French and Indian allies suffered far greater casualties during the campaign.
Gallipoli is an enigma that makes no sense. I don’t know why the Turks tolerate it.
I know one thing for certain; the Australian Army was and is full of Bogans.
Well said.
Goes to show boganity is a state of mind, not nationality.
Jesus, I guess this site is too sophisticated for your tiny brain to comprehend. Hmm but this opens a door to a new question ‘What are Turkish bogans called?’.
yeah it’s called satire…satire against bogans, sortof the point of every article in the site
Your subtlety is really quite poignant.
Overt patriotism will always be the realm of the bogan, but you have reminded me I do carry a little national pride after all – it’s in the wry melancholy I feel every time I see the Gallipoli Mosque at Auburn.
Sometimes it’s even in the camaraderie I feel when the kebab guy calls me ‘darling’ (although normally I’m already pretty drunk and maudlin when I feel that one).
I have no illusions whatsoever that anyone about to jump on here and correct your errors will have any idea what I’m talking about.
Well done.
Geez Louise. May I get you a Prozac? Nicely written though…
How funny. Just last night I saw some of that 50 to 1 movie quotes, and they showed a quote from Gladiator about unleashing hell. Dermot Brereton’s comment on the quote was that he could imagine the Anzacs saying that when they unleashed hell on the Turks. LOL
I said to the guy I was sitting with “But it was the Turks who unleashed hell on the Anzacs!”
and he said “Was it?”
*confused*
Well, it is pretty tough to unleash hell uphill
Always worked well enough for the Prince of Darkness.
Expecting insight from Dermot Brereton? From all reports his hair is the smartest thing about him – eek.
I certainly wasn’t expecting insights from Dermie. I just thought it was an embarrassing thing for him to say.
Just one of so many.
Overt and jingoistic nationalism was one of the many reasons why the First World war broke out. At its core was a deep seated arrogance and aggression and a desire to dominate. The ignorance of those fools who see going to Gallipoli as some kind of spiritual pilgrimage is only matched by the idiots who wrap themselves in the aussie flag and spew racist bile. Nationalism is a relatively new concept and whilst it’s fine to be patriotic, too many fail to see the connection between nationalistic sentiments,racism and violence.
Call it ‘Dingoism’.
Don’t be too clever there Maida, the bogans will just get confused.
There is little wrong with nationalism, as such.
Some people DO view Gallipoli as a spiritual pilgramage, especially those with familial connections to the conflict there,.
The ANZAC ‘myth’ has developed in the last 20 or so years from stories about the tragedy and horror of war, of pointless deaths, bravery and sacrifice into to a story about the legendary Australian ‘mateship’ and ‘larrikin sense of humour’.
Classic Bogan stuff – and renaming the Bogan “the little Aussie Battler” makes the mythology complete: The Bogan can now hero-worship the ANZAC soldier as one of their own, knowing that the ‘battle’ of servicing in the over-leveraged mortgage on the McMansion in the ‘burbs is somehow similar to the battle the ANZACS faced at Gallipoli, and the patriotic thing to do – the thing the ANZACs did – is to get totally trashed with their ‘mates’ on a Saturday night and rip up neighborhood letterboxes ‘for a lark’.
I can understand why some people would like to go Gallipoli, to take in the history and put things in perspective. But you can do this any other day of the year. Personally, I can pay my respects in more private ways and by living / promoting a more peaceful existence.
What I really hate is turning Gallipoli on Anzac Day into the Walkabout. It seems to be very disrespectful, not only to the soldiers, but to the locals that have welcomed Australians there. I can’t think of anything more tacky and ugly, and if anything is ‘UnAustralian’ (to use an ugly term), then trashing Gallipoli would be it.
This is right up there with Americans going ‘AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!’ every time they hear ‘Born In The USA’ without actually realising that this song is actually about a bloke who is royally pissed off at Uncle Sam for sending him off to Vietnam for no good reason.
And again
LOL. Or the epitome of boganhood, the Australian Cricket Team singing “Khe Sanh” after winning a game…
Not surprised this comment was made by a girl – they don’t think Khe Sanh after winning a game.
Girls should not speak about cricket, because invariably they will be proven wrong.
I agree with Fiona of Toorak.
NOT LOL. They sing ‘Under the Southern Cross’ after winning a test match Fiona, not ‘Khe Sanh.’
OOOH! There is an entire new blog topic here – the misunderstanding of the messages in certain songs, and the subsequent misuse of said songs in bogan culture. Top of the list:
– Khe Sanh;
– Holy Grail;
– Born in the USA (even though not entirely relevant to Aussie Bogans)…
Too many songs fit the bill, and too universal:
Cheap Wine
Flame Trees
almost any Cold Chisel song really- I’m only just getting over the ‘Barnsey’ aura and realising what a great craftsman Don Walker was.
Young Americans (‘took him minutes, took her nowhere . . .)
Heroes
Bohemian Rhapsody
Much of Schuman’s lieder output- cheery sounding bits of Dichterliebe have lyrics wilder than Nick Cave and Tom Waites, that airheads clasical fans don’t really care to think about.
Und zo weiter
ooh, that reminds me – Leonard Cohen’s Hallelujah should also be on the list (as an aside, plenty of discussion to be had there regarding the bogans constant mis-attribution of this song to Jeff Buckley).
Am I the only one who always wondered why ‘Working Class Man’ is a Bogan Anthem when the lyrics are as Americanised as they possibily can be: ‘steel town’, ‘mid-western sky’, ‘god and elvis’, ‘uncle sam’?
Poverty sucks – why try and romanticise it as being something noble?
..well it was written by an american … and sung by some scottish guy.
The song ‘F@#k You’ by Lily Allen
I am not in Australia at the moment, but can someone please confirm my suspicions that the bogans are loving this song sick? Of course, without really understanding that they are the receivers of said ‘f@#k you ‘ but merely enjoying the fact they can sing along quite happily to the profanities.
That song is about GWB. not bogans.
I fail to see a huge difference!
Jokes aside, I think my point was more along the lines of being amused that bigots sing along so happily to a song rubbishing a bigot… but fail to reflect upon its meaning because they are distracted by the profanity.
Bogans love Lily Allen.
It’s more accurately right up there with the fact that a ludicrous percentage of Anericans think they won the Vietnam War…
Along with crediting themselves with winning WWII, both Gulf Wars, etc.
Ignorance abounds.
Testify. I went to gallipoli for Anzac day as an ex soldier and history buff, and was embarrassed and saddened by the bogan hordes. Some passed out pissed during the service, sleeping on graves, doing the bogan rally call ( Aussie Aussie Aussie oi oi oi) during 2 min silence… They were mainly 19 yr olds on a ‘gap year’ in London (of course) whose Euro checklist included ‘doing’ Anzac day. I have advised everyone to go any time but late April.
Ditto ditto. I went twice for work and swore I’d never go again – at least not to the dawn service.
Daniel, were you there in ’99 ? I remember EXACTLY the same scene that year. 2 young flaxen-blonde guys who could barely stand doing the oi oi oi thang – right near us. Saw the whites of their eyes. En masse carrying of slabs into the dawn service. Reclining on graves like they were banana lounges. I also remember a pissed mob closer to the beach wrapped in an Aus flag struggling to stay upright whilst slurring the national anthem. Can you imagine even a particle of ANY of this being tolerated for even a second in Australia ?
An old guy stood up and sang “And the band played Waltzing Mathilda” just to shut them up. I have never been so ashamed to be Australian.
However, a few years later I was there again (again for work), standing speechless and gaping at the entrance to Lone pine while bored, waiting crowd in the grandstands did “Mexican waves” to Kylie Minogue dance music. Again, can you imagine that at the Shrine of Remembrance ?!
When I complained to an expat involved in booking these louts I was told I was a wowser bc the (killed) “diggers were young and liked a good time” (and would have approved).
I always longed for someone to do a survey of “why are you here ?” and “Define ‘Anzac spirit'”, “Describe what happened here” plus “How many times have you attended an A.D. Dawn Serice in your home country ?” of these types. Would be fascinating reading !
I remember seeeing OLD people there, doubtlessly bc of a relative who had been there during the campaign and who – unlike the under 29 drunks out from London on a 200 quid package – had come very far and at great expense and had to endure their behaviour. It might be Spring but it is FREEZING at that dawn service – virtually freezing.
It will be very interesting to see how many can actually make it this year, courtesy of the volcano !
totally agree here.. anzac day is supposed to be sombre and respectful of the war dead, yet it felt like i was at a cricket match.. un-fucking-believable! if i ever went to gallipoli again it would never be anzac day. on the same trip i went to bellicourt in france to find my grandfathers grave(he was killed going over the top a few weeks before armistice) and being there by myself with no crowds and looking around the paddocks etc was so emotional, it still brings a lump to the eye and a tear in the throat to think about it now.. fuck you bogans for ruining my gallipoli experience!!
Well, there are two sides to this. On the one side, Anzac Day is about remembering the losses and damages inflicted on young Anzacs and their families by [indifferent Brit generals conducting efficient tactics of] war. That is a solemn affair, and the message is one of contrition and of avoiding war in future, if possible.
The other side is to hail the young Anzacs who died there, honouring them for them sacrifice. Now, those young Anzacs were stupid bogan idiots who very eargerly flocked to the very rather random and to-Australia-unrelated cause like any Cronulla riot participant. Glory to the empire, of course, but mainly a show of the mindless macho, Aussie style. Those Anzacs are fairly suitably honoured by the young bogan tourists.
Of course. But not at the same time, in the same place !
Unfortunately they do not contain their “larriken” antics to the “pubs” afterwards, as the diggers always did in Oz. My friend’s father was a Rat of Tobruk and she said he “had to be rolled home”, absolutely plastered, every ANZAC day from the annual reunion, but all that occurred socially afterwards at another private venue – not at the services, not in public and not in the street. However, the yobbos have taken it to the services, although I believe its a little better than it used to be, possibly partly because they don’t sell booze inside the area anymore (the battlefields are out of town) and check bags for booze.
To think that even 5% of it would be tolerated for 1 second at The Shrine of Rememberance is laughable. But somehow its fine at Gallipoli.
I always thought the RoT probably drank so heavily at their reunion (my friend’s father never got drunk any other time) bc it was hard for that generation to show emotions.
The GAP year bogans haven’t suffered anything – what’s their excuse ?
“Dingoism”?
I believe that phrase contains more solid gold than Fort Knox. Kudos.
And why celebrate the ANZACs with a Turkish pilgrimage when we have a biscuit? It’s a crunchier form of patriotism.
I suggest we replace the Union Jack on our flag with a ANZAC biscuit. It would be a fair tribute and celebration of war and of food in one little package.
And it will look like a cowpat up in the corner, commemorating our bovine qualities. Or should that be donkey pat?
:))))) GOLD ! (literally)
“Dingoism”! LOL!
Consider it stolen. ;)
Read between the lines, and they’re pretty wide, the authors are being ironic referring to victory, “possibly some New Zealanders”, and I assume the WWII reference was intentional too. They’re highlighting the fact that poor white trash out there don’t know what they’re celebrating, just going along with the mindless nationalistic “aussie aussie aussie oi oi oi” bandwagon.
Yes, irony, etc: agreed. ‘Poor white trash’ – don’t agree. I worry about elitist labels like ‘poor white trash.’ We know much of Australia is anti-intellectual, but you’ve just given an example of why ‘poor white trash’ gets together to chant ‘aussie aussie aussie oi oi oi.’ It’s because, when you don’t have access to decent education, what else are you going to be proud of but your ‘sense of community’ and your working class (work hard/play hard) ethic? The rich, clever b*******s aren’t going to be your mate, you probably hate the (poorer) foreigners who come in and take your jobs because they’ll work for less money, so what else have you got apart from the chip on your shoulder and the support of your peers? I agree with your sentiment, but I just worry about convenient labels like ‘poor white trash’, because I think it’s a short trip from there into blaming people for their economic circumstances and education.
Sorry to rant. Having lived a number of years in a caravan, I’m bound to feel strongly about these things!
LOL. Everyone in Australia has access to excellent education. The hallmark (well, one of many) of the bogan is its inability to take advantage of it.
With respect, I disagree. Education in Australia is not ‘excellent’. It is poor, particularly in history, and particularly in large, understaffed state schools.
But the point is that it takes more than school to educate you, and many don’t have the advantage parents being able to set an example to aspire to, or who are economically (or socially) able to provide a home environment conducive to getting their kids a decent crack at the good life once they grow up.
Apart from that, the Australian bogan is not necessarily poor or white; those visiting Gallipoli during some gap year have certainly had to have come up with the money to travel from somewhere…
I love wearing the Australian flag. Especially when it still has the fold lines in it because it was only purchased 15 minutes ago.
Yes and made in China…we all know Chinese make cheap crap ‘ey Wang Chung ?
We’re the best fighters in the world. If it weren’t for all our troops in Iraq that place would have been re-taken by the Taliban ages ago. Our soldiers are braver than the others and much better trained.
What utter garbage! Best in the world? Who peddles this myth? The whole ‘Anzac Legend’ was just a piece of officially sanctioned propaganda to help cover up and distract from the fact that the entire Gallipoli campaign was an unmitigated disaster. C.W.Bean, the official historian, responsible for the ‘Anzac Book’ deliberately ommitted any reference negative behaviours of the anzac troops. Ever since, Australians seem to have fallen for the illusion that we produce the world’s best soldiers. What arrogance! Whilst they have no doubt performrd admirably, there are no compelling reasons to suggest they are the best.
David,
Huge fail dickhead. Nice job Berihebi.
Failing to take hold and advantage of that education…the hallmark of the bogan on display right here Simon with your comment.
well done David, I think you are the only person on here who failed to see berihebi’s comment was made with tongue firmly planted in cheek.
I thought the bit about the Taliban re-taking Iraq might have been a give away but obviously not…
Actually, if you look into some of the later battles in the First World War, the Australian’s were quite successful soldiers, particularly at Hamel, where we made use of quite innovative and impressive tactics that the Germans would later refine into ‘blitzkrieg’.
On the other hand, our early efforts were a shambles – ANZAC cove was the wrong beach, the chain of command broke down, battalions fell apart and soldiers were unclear on orders or had no specific goals other than to get a foothold on the beach.
Close Ian, but not quite. And I do realise what a pedant I come across going through old threads so as to correct historical errors, but nonetheless…
Those tactics you are talking about actually originating in one of two places – historians are still debating it. They originated either with an Englishman called Auchinleck, or a German infantry captain. These tactics – where multiple forms of weapons were combined in small units with high levels of tactical discretion – were first seen (arguably) in the tank campaigns of early 1917, particularly at Cambrais. The Germans later refined these tactics – albeit without tanks, and far more effectively – during their massive Spring Offensive (or Kaiserschlacht to the Germans) of 1918, where they took more ground than any previous campaign of the war, after the lines had settled in late 1914. The tactics used by the Australians at Hamel were General Monash’s modification of the German Spring Offensive tactics.
As far as I understand the Anzacs were mowed down by machine gun fire at Gallipoli and it was just a case of young men from the colonies being used as cannon fodder.
You should read up on Albert Jacka VC.
Did he enter a Turkish trench shooting 5 Turks and bayonetting another 2?
How did Albert go against the Germans on the Western front?
My Grandfather was at Gallipoli he was one of the last to leave, we fought under the Union Jack,my Grandfather took that flag before he left and donated it to the Roseville RSL.
One isolated story does not the myth make. As a historian myself I think you should all listen to Ian.
irony win
Aah yes. “Our” famous victory that “we” fought so valiantly in. No doubt that one day America will look on Vietnam as a great success and the reason it became a superpower rather than the end of the Great Society.
There is already an aircraft doco that implies an American victory after the secret bombing raids of Laos by saying the war finished soon after these raids. They just didn’t say who won.
cant stand lily livered modern men attempting to denigrate the efforts of past generations.I bet the hardest you ever fought was to get the tv remote first.
um – where is the denigration of past generations? I can only see that in the bits about boozing on and trashing their graves?
So true. The fallen become a ‘commodity’ to be used and abused by the bogan to up their ‘Australian-ness’.
I don’t think it’s a matter of disrespecting the efforts of those that went to war. It’s more a matter of highlighting the futility and stupidity of war. Good people go off and fight other people’s wars.
By romanticising Gallipoli, by romanticising war, society and governments plant the seed for the next generation of cannon fodder.
Yes, Maida Pale.
After being on half a dozen Gallipoli tours over the years and having read a bit some years ago now, what has come across to me is that
– Gallipoli became meaningful to ANZ bc of the valiant efforts of the ANZAC force in a futile situation.
– The skills & qualities of the typical ANZAC soldier there – many of whom had rural skills and ingenuity – were particularly valued and effective in that particular situation.
– National pride arose from (a) Gallipoli being the first ? / very early participation of ANZAC troups in combat AND (b) the admirable effort made under the almost impossible circumstances – all campaigns & battles are terrible but this situation was pretty hopeless from the word go.
– It was not all romanticism and propaganda – although there was an element. Even the enemy respected them and some decent, noble stuff did happen between the sides.
Every country has its campaigns / battles that are the most meaningful for THEM. America – possibly Iwa Jima ?, Britain: surely The Somme & Dunkirk, Canada: Normandy Beaches, ANZ – Gallipoli. It seems Victory is irrelevant. Dunkirk was utterly a retreat.
More than 4 times as many Brits were killed at Gallipoli as ANZACs but it simply does not have the MEANING for Britain that it has for ANZ.
I hope this makes sense ! :/
Lily-livered?
I thought only Yosemite Sam used that phrase… Perhaps you should throw in a quick “long-eared varmit” as well.
Or Alf Stewart from Home & Away.
A taxi driver in Turkey once tried to tell me about Australian tourists at Gallipoli. He couldn’t really speak English so his explanation mostly involved giggling, twirling his index finger near his temple to indicate ‘crazy’ and pretending to chug beers.
LOL
Do you think those young men who went off to fight were not prone to a bit of beer guzzling and “yahooing” ? Many were just kids after all. Noone needs lecturing on the “futility of war”: to put it at it’s laziest, we all realise that.
I dare say that many of those who died would identify more with the “yahoo” crowd than the “tsk tsk” crowd.
I very much doubt that those who died would have guzzled beer during a memorial service and passed out on tombstones. They were from a generation who understood respect.
Yes, how silly of me to use a ‘given’ to extend my argument. I should be more presumptious in future posts.
I know exactly what you mean and it is a common argument put forward by those “types” at Gallipoli on ANZAC day.
However, I cannot imagine that any of those “larrikins” who died very horribly there (some by bayonet) would find it the slightest bit funny over their graves on a day of solemn remembrance.
Another common argument was that veterens “piss up” on ANZAC day – so why can’t we also ? (Don’t start me)
I always found it amazing that that behaviour was never seen any other day (out at the battle fields at least). If getting plastered and hooning in their grave yards is a tribute to larrikin diggers, why don’t they carry on like that every day of the year ?
And why don’t they try it on at the Shrine of Rememberance, War memorial,Canberra, any war memorial anywhere in Australia 7 NZ ? Mmmm
I can see that the objection here is that Australians celebrate the anniversary – not that we went to war.
But have some taste – my great uncle died in that war and it is pretty ignorant to take the piss out of that event or any related event if you ask me.
Nicko wrote: “Australians celebrate the anniversary”
No we don’t. We commemorate it. There is no celebration on ANZAC Day.
‘Commemorate’?
Judging by the behaviour in my town, I thought it was just an excuse for a drunken afternoon piss-up at the pub whilst taking part in suddenly-legalised gambling.
< Lives a kilometre from a Pub, and every Anzac day the walls shake from whatever shitty Cover Band has been hired to be the soundtrack to chugging Black Eggs as they gamble away the Easter Bonus.
The objection is to turn it into booze-fuelled skirt chasing party full of dick heads, which is disrespectful to people such as your great uncle.
There is no objection to commemorating the anniversary and giving it the moment of quiet reflection it deserves.
Absolutely.
Heading down to the War Memorial in Canberra in a taxi last Anzac Day for the dawn service, I had a half naked drunk woman and her bogan hopeful flag us down, and swear about how “fucken drunk” she was, and that she hadn’t slept but wanted to go to the War Memorial as well “to pay her fucken respects”. It is people like that, with their clear lack of respect for the war dead, who cheapen the memory and take the piss with their ignorance, Nicko. Most of us have more dignity and respect for our dead soldiers than that. And objecting to such behaviour shows real respect, not ignorance.
My great uncle died on Gallipoli beach, one grandfather was interred in Changi after Singapore fell and the other near Lodz in Poland by the Nazis. Other members of the family are now currently serving in Afganistan and have been in Iraq with the paratroopers and SAS. My whole life Anzac Day has been a solemn day in my family that was observed mourning the devastating effects of these experiences on those men, and on the rest of the family that they came home to, and it was the only time I would ever see, as a child, the stoic Aussie men around me shed a tear to those memories.
So two years ago, when I was living in the UK, my parents came over and we went to experience the dawn service, and I was disgusted with what I saw.
We speak about irony here, but nothing is more bitterly ironic than a bunch of bogan clowns with Aussie flags painted on their faces like it’s some kind of sporting match (shouting out the deplorable Aussie aussie aussie, oi oi oi at every moment), sitting in the chill wind of that rocky beach, waiting for dawn, and complaining about the cold, the fact that the seats are too hard, or the food isn’t up to standard, or any other number of miserable, petty grievances. It’s lost on them just what they are there for- and it’s not to celebrate anything.
It was on that beach that it started to dawn on me what has happened to the culture I’d been away from for 7 years, and that the bogan’s thoughts, words and deeds have become mainstream.
Do people know that a day or two before hand there is an ‘Anzac’ dance party just down from that beach? Or that some scrubber will get a cheer by flashing her boobs to the waiting crowd before the ceremony has started? Or that you can see during the Lone Pine ceremony guys walking around with a tinnie in their hand and a hat made from the beer carton?
It sickens me that we have lifted up and nourished this consumerist, grasping, tiny minded, spoilt and parochial segment of the community, the ‘Ordinary Australian’, as if being ordinary was the only aspiration worth having.
I just wonder what the 18 to 20 year old men who spilt their blood on that beach would think of today’s bogan, and I wonder whether today’s bogan would ever make anything near the same kind of sacrifice for people they’ve never met.
LOL. An excellent missive, but I never voted for you.
Brilliantly put Keating
PK – as always – has hit the nail right on the head here. No wonder he was the World’s Greatest Treasurer for all those years.
My take on today’s blog – as I mentioned earlier – is that TBL is attempting to address the irony deficiency that Australia is currently suffering. The nice part is that it it’s 100% pure old school irony, like the stuff that was going around about 100 years ago or so.
I’d go as far as to say that this is one of TBL’s best efforts thus far, as it has been extremely thought provoking as well as dead accurate. Whilst I can’t speak on behalf of TBL, my initial thoughts are that the evil geniuses on TBL’s staff have nothing but the utmost respect for the ANZACs. Hence, the total and utter repugnance for those bogans that treat Gallipoli Cove as a cheap holiday destination, and the service as a great big keg party.
Glad you enjoyed it, Tone. You’ve summed up our perspective well enough. TBL
On another note, being ‘an ordinary Australian’ used to be something quite different. I’m sure your great uncle and grandfathers thought of themselves that way, but were people of grit and determination (and probably quietly cultivated and courteous to boot). Weary Dunlop and Dick Hamer were likewise ‘ordinary’ people who did extraordinary things during war and afterwards displayed civility, large-mindedness, and sense of public service it seems we can only dream about now.
I too lived in London and went to the service in turkey when my parents visited two years ago. My south African girlfriend at the time, from what she saw, thought it was a big pissup for young Aussies, . My dad, for whom The day has always been important, was so angry and hurt that the bogans acted the way they did. It was horrid and disgraceful.
“I just wonder what the 18 to 20 year old men who spilt their blood on that beach would think of today’s bogan, and I wonder whether today’s bogan would ever make anything near the same kind of sacrifice for people they’ve never met.”
EXACTLY. I have been ridiculed in Turkey by young ANZ expats for expressing similar sentiments.
Some may have been “larrikins”, but I bet they weren’t laughing for long and certainly not when fighting – and dying.
The conditions at Gallipoli were terrible: corpses found in the drinking water, men drowning in pit toilets into which they collapsed while dying of dystentery – just hilarious.
I think part of the problem is that many tours gloss over how bad it was, rather emphasising the better-than-usual goodwill btwn the sides and how we are all friends now. I know what happened at Lone Pine and it was absolutely dreadful – and when I saw people doing Mexican waves over it to Kylie Minogue music … they just have no idea. How could they ?
People who “take the piss” and disrespect it tend to be of the last generation or so, those who have had it easier than any generation, they havent had to fight or go without.
surely women dont flash their boobs at the Anzac service ??
:S
You wouldn’t think these clowns would climb on the monuments, or sit on the gravestones ‘because my legs are tired’, or drink beer while it’s all going on either, would you?
No class, no idea. I wish it wasn’t so..
Its fairly de rigeur in the nearby towns where they stay once the “partying” gets going. Locals do come to watch the tourists’ antics. (Well, they used to anyway)
Tone,
Nice job son.
The fact that ‘the fanatics’ do organised tours for Gallipoli sums up the modern ANZAC Day experience. Seeing a group photo of them looking serious at the Lone Pine service in their bright yellow ‘Fanatics – Gallipoli Tour 2007′ t-shirts and draped in Australian flags made for one of the stupidest pictures I’ve ever seen. To quote another blog which showed said pic: ‘A solemn journey of self-exploration, a search for an Australian identity, all reduced to a f**king t-shirt.’
Pic can be seen here:
LOL. OMG, “The Fanatics”! They MUST be the subject of their own very speshul bogan entry!
The pack mentality of high-functioning morons is nothing new.
Didn’t it used to be that letting a flag even touch the ground was seen as a major disgrace, and as a symbol of nationhood flags should be treated with the highest respect?
Now the bogan shows his ‘Stralyin Pride at Anzac cove, rock concerts and the V8 muscle cars by wearing it like a cape, bunched up and tied around his neck. They demand respect from all but show none, typical of their ilk.
I have nothing but smouldering contempt for these people, can’t you tell?
Yes, it’s disrespectful for a flag to touch the ground. It’s even covered by the flag handling protocol the Australian Government uses for raising flags etc. The guidelines are quite strict on how, when, and where you can fly them.
Love the pic. Especially the bright young thing on the left with the ‘clit-tickler’. NOLLSYYYY!
I once heard that ‘The Fanatics’ (an inspired name) were set up to counter the touring English supporters, the Barmy Army. When The Fanatics attempted to
rile their opponents with their usual (half)wit, the Barmy Army replied with their own chant;
“Ball and chain, ball and chain,
We came out in Qantas, you in ball and chain”
As my daughter would say, pwned.
one of my must see destinations while sightseeing turkey didnt go on anzac day but a month later,i was touched deeply in the understanding of not only what the anzacs went through,but also that the local people are genuine in their understanding of the signifigance of this place to australians even though we were the aggressors at that time,they were alot more civil than the rest of the country-maybe we did win ha ha
least they look solemn with no flashing
It’s an offshoot of that other bogan trait – owning things. If you go to the Anzac ceremony in Turkey, you are, of course, entitled to act like a boozy loser because actually, by purchasing the ticket and being there, you ARE an Anzac. Oh yes. And therefore you can act however you like because that’s what Anzacs deserve and that’s what you are. hmmm mmm.
It’s like when they go out and buy an iphone and show it to you and kind of wait for you to say “oh wow that’s amazing. I can’t believe you have that!” as though they designed it or something.
Taking credit where credit is NOT due.
A very cleverly put post Rusty, just waiting for one of these idiots to not bother reading past the heading or the first line and spew forth some drivel about ‘doin it for the diggers’.
Paul Keating’s comment was perfect, very well said mate.
I commemorate every ANZAC day at my local RSL, attending the dawn service which is followed by a mass then breakfast with a couple of rums then home for a nap and usually get back up there for a toss.
What makes me sick is the ever increasing number of young blokes and some girls turning up for the dawn service straight from the city somewhere blind drunk or still off chops thinking they are showing respect for the tens of thousands of better and braver people than themselves that died in the shitfight that was WWI.
Getting blind on rum before 9am is a good idea too, as for the aussie flag tattoos on their cheeks and the flag draped over their backs leave it for Australia Day.
Two up is now run by some poxy events management club because some young fuckwit snotted the caller after a toss didnt go his way.
I have always wanted to go to Turkey or France for the dawn service aswell as the history but am disappointed to say that I perhaps wont because of these same young retards who go there to get on the piss and trash the place.
At the risk of generalising I will say that 99% of these idiots are young, gen Y spastics ( not saying all gen Y-ers are spastics!) that have probably never had to lift a finger for anything, not even put the bins out for pocket money.
Grrr it makes me angry! Sorry about the rant I feel better now!
Classic !
Well said, Kat.
Well put.
coq rok is back to comment i just pulled up at a maccas drive thru in my cousins fully done up turbo charged V8 n scored their free wi-fi so thought id reappear on my fav bogan baggin site. I love this sht, these bogans dunno what is what but they know what is what, they just strut thru Kokoda, wtf! Lebs rule yu’le….. Thought id thro in some of my own nationalism since its tropical.
What to say but, FULLLY SICK!
hectic bro
Another brilliant post, and some good comments here.
‘The Fanatics’ and the traveling bogan are a serious problem. Ruining the Australian reputation one event/city/country at a time.
I currently live in London and it is infested with this type of bogan. The type who think they are worldly because “they travel and shit”. The type who travel to the other side of the world only to live in a share house full of other Aussie bogans in Shepherd’s Bush (affectionately known as She-Bu to the bogan as they must shorten the name of everything), spend all of their free time in ‘Walkabout’ pubs or the ‘Redback’ and their only interactions with anyone non-Aussie is when they threaten to bash the Saffas or Kiwis because they slagged off their cricket/rugby/competitive sporting team.
I agree with going to Galipoli any time but ANZAC day for the same reason I say don’t go to Munich during Oktoberfest… ‘The Fanatics’ are a disgrace, pack mentality boganism at its finest.
““Ball and chain, ball and chain,
We came out in Qantas, you in ball and chain”
As my daughter would say, pwned.”
Pwned by the Barmy Army? Hardly – they were English, Scots and Irish convicts. ‘We’ were the worst scum and crap of THEIR society. If that’s ‘wit’ it’s a few rungs below Noel Coward.
The English, normally so adept with it, really seem to always miss *that* irony. Anyway, cricket was always a Toff’s game, that’s why it’s soooo great that we always kill them at it; football (soccer) was the working class man’s game, and that’s the only place you hear proper terrace wit in English sport.
Back on topic – I don’t care if you have a personal connection to Gallipoli because of your extended ancestry; when you are in another country, you are a guest, and an ambassador for your homeland. So you fuckin’ behave yourself because that is the appropriate behaviour for a guest and affects how people who may never come here see us. If you act like a cock, it’s both a personal fail and an Australian fail, because you make the rest of ‘us’ who know how to behave like responsible, considerate human beings look like caveman dicks.
I do NOT share the popular media’s ‘Australian identity’, though I was born and raised here. Nationalism is an atavistic redundance; “the old lie, Dulce et Decorum est. Pro patria mori.”
Dear Angry- why so angry? I guess there are so many reasons in Brunswick. The point people with family connections are making here is that they DONT want to go to a service which is dominated by drunken idiots which is disrespectful to the memory of their ancestors. The idea that you can simply turn up as an Australian to Gallipoli and expect to behave like that because it’s how you beahve at home is the horrifying aspect of the phenomenon.
The ugly Australian frequently has no idea they’re even on foreign soil- I can remember tourists in Bali being vox popped at the time of the bombing talking about the outrage of a terrorist attack happening in AUstralia.
Another irony- Bogans will scrawl ‘If you don’t like it, leave’ and ‘Speak English’ across their chest, while wearing an Aussie flag cape while at home, but will never even learn hello in a local language, pay anyone any respect in their home country, and even denigrate the locals as second class citizens. Anyone ‘foreign’ who tried to act that way here in a bogan suburb would get a big bogan head kicking.
That’s virtually another post by itself, isn’t it? Car stickers like “fuck off we’re full” and the like…
It was the 1st world war, not the 2nd.
Finding it hard to read your work as it contains american (sic) english, surely a trademark of an uneducated bogan?
If you are going to take the piss out of a particular group of people it pays to;
1. Get your facts straight
2. Use correct spelling/grammar.
Dr S (an honorific testament to your lofty educational attainment), our Microsoft Word is set to american spelling for unrelated professional reasons. Sometimes the odd one slips through to the blog, but you’ll live. TBL
well done Mark S – have a lolly from the jar
now have another read and see if you can detect the subtle irony & sarcasm
Bit rich of Mark S to make denigrating comments on the author’s spelling and grammar when his was fairly deplorable.
Why do I get the feeling that the person who created the #33 listing must be related to the pre-Gough Whitlam era Uni student hippie draft dodgers who attended the ANZAC day marches solely to hurl abuse and spit on those who did go to Vietnam, creating a cover for their own fear of actually being drafted into the war themselves.
Because we are all related to the pre-Gough Whitlam era Uni student hippie draft dodgers who attended the ANZAC day marches solely to hurl abuse and spit on those who did go to Vietnam, creating a cover for their own fear of actually being drafted into the war themselves. – TBL
Do you history study. Gallipoli was a waste of time. Nothing to celebrate, no heroes, nothing that Australian’s need to be getting so worked up over. Dysentery and other bacterial infections killed more people than some heroic war effort. It’s got nothing to do with politics and everything to with actually studying the facts of what took place.
Enough with your fancypants talk of “facts”, sir!! Pfft, next thing you’ll be telling them that asylum seekers don’t get more $$ than we do, to live on; or, or! that Sikhs and Muslims are different things. “Facts”, he says.
I can understand your sense of disappointment in the behaviour of so-called ‘Patriotic Australians’ rubbishing a piece of soil (that as you point out is not even Australian territory) that is steeped so deeply in early 20th century Australian history and behaving in a completely opposite manner to that of the soldiers whose tragically taken lives they’re supposed to be celebrating.
Good to see you’ve come around. – TBL
This is such a great post – the best I’ve read so far on TBL! The smug self-righteousness of those commenters who took it upon themselves to advise the authors of TBL to “get your facts straight” only added to my amusement. Inciting ire in bogans is one of my favourite pastimes.
I know, fantastic isn’t it. I creased up at the WWII reference
Some of these replies are humanity failing. TBL’s best work to date. Please tell me a ‘guitar hero’ post is in the works
These ferals bogans are more than happy to cover themselves in Australiana tattoos, wave Australian flags everywhere and tell everyone how “Aussie” they are, yet ask them to fill you in on true WWI heroes such as Albert Jacka and you get the blankest of looks ever! Don’t even bother asking them who the first Prime Minister was……most would tell you Captain Cook!
(Wearily shaking head) so true, so true.
(also laughed a lot)
These bogan pilgrimages now extend past a once-annual visit to gallipoli in april. Having just returned from turkey, i met some of these lovely grave trashing individuals, who thought turkey was just lovely except for all those ‘terrorist muslims’ hanging about.
*sigh*
they’re a civilised,peace loving people
Best…post…ever….
Oh you lads, love giving the Hornets nest a bit of a jiggle don’t we…
have you done a post on bogans liking irony? It could be time.
That would be ironic! TBL
http://www.beneathhill60.com.au/
Don’t know if anyone has talked about this yet, it’s a new movie coming out on ANZAC Day. It actually looks alright, but you can just imagine the bogans lapping it up, particularly by the way it is being marketed.
The tagline, “After Gallipoli, there was still a war to be won.” This will confuse the bogan momentarily, as it thinks the war was won at Gallipoli. But this will be disregarded as the trailer portrays x-treme x-plosion and x-treme violence..
Good Lord. I’ve only just read the comments here and I am very, very sorry that I missed out on such fun.
I (ex serviceman) went to gallipolli for ANZAC Day 2001 and was #$%^@ disgusted with the bogans. I wish I could post pics. But sleeping through the dawn service (pissed), doing “aussie aussie oi oi oi” in the 2 mins silence, and basically being a shirtload of 19 yr old backpackers doing their year in london (which is a bogan topic in itself) and then ‘doing” Gallipolli, ruined it.
I understand that recently alcohol was banned, this will probably manke it 50 times better.
I attended the dawn service at ANZAC Cove in 2001 as well and concur with your observations of the bogans in attendance. As with most things that bogans cotton onto and ruin, they did not comprehend the meaning of the occassion. I’m sure that they do not have a genuine reason to attend, apart from the fact that they’ve heard it’s ‘just what Aussies do’, with no real appreciation of the history nor that it is quite a sombre occassion; they arrive thinking that it’s a celebration and lark about, getting pissed, like they’re at a party.
What’s disappointing is that there aren’t any wars these days that can thin out the number of bogans.
DOWN WITH ENGLAND !!!
WE DEMAND FOR AN AUSTRALIAN REPUBLIC !! WE ARE STRONGER THAN ANY OHTER NATION SO WHY MUST WE BOW DOWN TO ENGLAND !! DOWN WITH THE QUEEN !!
REOVLUTION !! REVOLUTION !!!! REVOLUTION !!!!!
DOWN WITH THE UNION JACK !! DOWN !! DOWN !!! DOWN !!!!!!
“MUST SEE” PIC:
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/bank-manager-adam-taylor-has-dedicated-his-back-for-anzacs-tattoo/story-e6frf7kx-1225852025663
“Bank manager Adam Taylor has dedicated his back for Anzacs tattoo”
Tattooist Tim Howden works on Adam Taylor’s homage to the Australian soldier. Picture: Nicole Garmston Source: Herald Sun
ANZACS laid down their lives for their countrymen.
Bank manager Adam Taylor, 33, has dedicated his back to their selfless sacrifice.
Buglers, Simpson and his donkey alongside other uniformed soldiers, red poppies and the poignant words of The Ode are all present under the Rising Sun tattoos taking shape on Mr Taylor’s back in time for Anzac Day.
“I’m passionate about the camaraderie of our armed forces, and I wear my passion with pride,” he said.
“I found the pictures of the iconic images associated with the Anzacs and decided to have them permanently placed on my person.”
His father and grandfather both served in the army and while his interest is in all things military, his enthusiasm for World War I history, and the Anzacs especially, is palpable.
“Especially as we approach Anzac Day and the ever dwindling number of vets marching, it is all about Lest We Forget,” he said.
“I’ll attend the Dawn Service at the Shrine where every year, when I hear the bugler and the volley of shots, I get goosebumps and my hair stands on end.”
He has shown the unfinished tattoo to his partner’s great-grandfather, a 95-year-old Rat of Tobruk who lives in Anglesea. “You should have seen his eyes light up,” Mr Taylor said.
Mr “Squizz” Taylor has spent seven hours and nearly $1000 so far to create the ambitious artwork painfully and painstakingly being inked over his broad back by award-winning tattooist Tim Howden.”
I wonder if went to the dawn service topless ?
(A tat devotee once said to me they would never bother to have another tat on their back again bc they couldn’t see it to enjoy it !)
Les Carlyon, who know’s a thing or two about these things (both irony and Gallipoli), said this:
“Alan Bond, that case-hardened warrior from the corporate wars, was in a little trouble in 1983, and this time it wasn’t financial. The Australian yacht – his yacht, really – was trailing by three races to one in the America’s Cup. Bond still thought victory possible. He made a reference to Gallipoli. Then he spoke the deathless words: ‘We had our backs to the wall there and we won that one.’ We shouldn’t take easy shots: this man later bought his own university”.
I think TBL is getting desperate for things to write about. This one’s pretty pathetic.
‘Getting’ desperate? We wrote this 18 months ago. TBL
not at all Country Girl. The boganisation of Anzac Day started in the late 90’s and now has sadly become just another must do ‘activity’ for the bogan in between the beerfest and the running of the bulls. Bogans feel like they too are sacrificing themselves in honor of the fallen, because that weekend they are away they are missing out on going to The Church.
Not if you actually study the history from the primary and secondary source documents of what took place. Gallipoli was a joke, and for some reason we’re the only country in the world that likes to celebrate a war where we were slaughtered by not just the other side, but also by dysentery and other bacterial infections due to a lack of supplies and being abandoned by the United Kingdom. Heroes? Hardly. Hard-done-by? Definitely.
I did a day trip with a small tour bus to Gallipoli last year and always remember one bogan at the end of the tour ask what year was the landing after observing hundreds of graves which stated ‘died 1915′. Also the tour guide commented on the preparations for the 100th anniversary in 2015.
However, if you look through different printers carefully, it
should be easy to spot the ones that are cheap but also have
a good reputation in good quality printing. Do not just try to
remember them. Do not hesitate to ask for a sample, especially when your order is huge.
Shouldn’t that be WWI allies? At least get your facts straight if you’re going to have a go. Know before you have a go. I do however 100% agree with what is written here.
Go to your room. TBL
Um Gallipoli happened in WWI not WWII, know before you have a go in future. I agree with everything else you have posted however.
People are just plain stupid to follow others into war, or allow themselves to be fooled by others and led I to war