#177 – Carbon Offsets

27 09 2010

While the bogan’s tendency to consume maxtreme quantities of fossil fuels may at times give off the impression that it is a climate change denier, this is not the case. In fact, the green movement has gained sufficient mainstream momentum that the bogan now wishes to be seen as being part of it. It has witnessed prominent celebrities campaigning for the environment, and can now often be overheard speaking of its wish for the government to hurry up and fix it. It even watched Live Earth on television and occasionally remembers to take its green bags to the supermarket.

No, rather than a climate change denier, the bogan is simply a change denier. And this presents a conundrum. It wishes to be seen as a worldly and considerate environmentalist, but also feels a primal urge to vigorously deny any proposal, environmental or otherwise, that requires it to alter its lifestyle in any way, shape or form. As such, the bogan’s opposition to a substantial carbon reduction plan is rooted not in climate change skepticism, but in the desire to protect the ‘Australian dream’ – those basic constitutional rights without which the continent might as well be flooded by melting polar ice caps and rickety boats full of poor people. These constitutional privileges include the right to own a thin-walled McMansion and artificially control its temperature to 18 degrees in summer and 28 degrees in winter, the right to low-cost, high-speed private transport, and the right to consume petrol as recreation.

But the bogan, ever in the know, has the answer. It has seen that movie about Al Pacino – An Inconvenient Truth – and come up with a convenient solution. Carbon offsets. These allow the bogan to pontificate about environmental issues while maintaining the ability to have 25 minute showers, get out and use the radiant heat lamp, clean the driveway with a high pressure hose, ride jet skis and dirt bikes, drive the car to the milk bar, make frequent trips to Bali, and not bother separating plastics from green waste. All of this can be offset by paying a company $2 to pretend to plant trees in someone else’s backyard. In this case it actually does have to be someone else’s backyard, because the 2 metre space between the McMansion and the back fence is entirely occupied by a Buddhism-themed water fountain and a 16 burner barbecue so powerful that it needs to be bolted into the pavers to prevent it from launching vertically when ignited.


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263 responses

27 09 2010
Tone

Looks like TBL had better buy itself maxtreme quantities of carbon offsets … they’re on fire today!

27 09 2010
Brimstone

FUCKING HELL. in this country even the ‘rednecks’ are hippies. climate change is happening, but it will happen after we’re dead so stop worrying about it and stop using it as an excuse to fight human progress. seriously… is there nobody in this country who isn’t on the ‘save the Earth/save the whales’ bandwagon?
our planet is heating up from the strength of mankind’s passion and the glory of it’s technology and that same technology will find a solution. nuclear, flying to other planets, whatever
but here even the bogans have to pretend to be green

27 09 2010
AlyssaKT

“climate change is happening, but it will happen after we’re dead so stop worrying about it” – Brimstone.

What a repulsive attitude.

27 09 2010
urbanreverie

“climate change is happening, but it will happen after we’re dead so stop worrying about it and stop using it as an excuse to fight human progress.”

*BLINK*

You don’t have kids or neices or nephews, do you Brim? What an appalling lack of consideration for future generations.

27 09 2010
SD

In some mixed up way I think Brimstone is saying climate change is happening but humans will find a solution for it – but maybe not in our lifetime. Ergo no need to worry about future generations.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

I think Brimstone’s other comments such as ‘climate change nihilist’ suggest that he just doesn’t give a f*ck.

27 09 2010
SD

🙂

27 09 2010
Brimstone

both. i believe in the power of technology
but i also believe that after i die nothing will matter, ’cause i son’t be around

27 09 2010
chubbybloodfart

sayonara buddy.

27 09 2010
TurnThePlage

That’s what the carbon tax is for.

27 09 2010
Dgusten

Yes, I’m sure we’ll find a solution if all people are as visionary as Brimstone clearly is.

Necessity isn’t the mother of all invention – indifferent, selfish arrogance apparently is.

28 09 2010
Les

i disagree. he most likely has a 2 year old daughter who he sired in a back alley outside somewhere like ‘the regatta’ in brisbane.

27 09 2010
JGTFU

That’s an odd assertion, that climate change will happen after we’re dead. Maximum and minimum daily temperatures are rising in most parts of the world, and those places where they aren’t are in a small minority. I have access to the full Bureau of Meteorology dataset back to 1889, and the trend in rising temperatures is clear from a number of studies. That’s happening _now_.

Here’s something you can expect to see in your lifetime. Projections of bushfire frequency suggest that what were formerly 1 in 50 year events will become 1 in 13 year events by 2030. Big bushfires. Maybe it’s started. Black Saturday. Moscow. The Amazon. I can dig out the reference if you need.

Technological solution? Bury all the powerlines? That will reduce _that_ source of bushfires. But we have to pay for it. Are you up for that? I would guess that it’s someone else’s problem….

Until we get a disincentive for producing greenhouse pollution, that is. Say, something like an economic penalty. A tax of some kind.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

JGTFU,
You disregard the effects of lack of natural burnoffs and burnoffs occasioned by native Australians. these (lack) things have increased the fuel load dramaticallyas you can find out if you look at fuel load records

The period of temperature rise that you refer to has happened before over geological times and influences of solar output also effect us on 11 year cycles.
Surely to be convincing you should garner as many different threads as may apply. otherwise your opinion is no more valid then those of the skeptics.

27 09 2010
pb

the solar cycle argument has been pulled apart so many times. there is no ’11 year cycle’ dictating the climate. and anyway, the level of solar radiation in the last few years has been lower, and yet the temperatures of the same years have been among the 10 hottest on record.

28 09 2010
AlyssaKT

Indigenous Australians believe/d in several seasons within seasons.

I thought about them and their perfectly suitable nomadic ways also, JH, which included small burn-offs – but also moving before bush fire season, no doubt! (And not building houses surrounded by dry leaf litter and big trees in the bush…)

Another claim was that the Victorian fires were especially bad because no additional burning off was done to the scrub that had previously been trampled by the wild horses that were slaughtered…

29 09 2010
brad

They were especially bad because well-meaning legislation brought into force by local councals has prevented people from any sought of property perimeter clearing;this combined with a lack of state government willingness for any sought of meaningful back-burning over larger areas,ie:state parks,public land has created a perfect storm situation.Too excuse the pun,but we are not out of the woods yet and the section of the Yarra Valley where i live was untouched by the Black Saturday fires,and is not only a time bomb waiting too go off,but is a lot more heavily populated than the Kinglake,Marysville area.Nothing has been done in this area to prevent another disaster and if the same conditions occur and it goes up you could add a nought too the Black Saturday death toll and say good-bye too Yarra Valley reds and whites for a few years.Its all just sitting there building up a bigger fuel base every year-f4cken scarey.

29 09 2010
James Hunter

Brad,
The city greeny do gooders(they think) come to the country and impose their views on the locals is a starting point for trouble.
Black man and farmers all understand need for regular burning off and the differenc in destructivness of a cool burn off and a red hot fire storm.
People who have never been closer to a bush fire then a TV screen are in no position to make judgements or to give vacuous advice.

30 09 2010
AlyssaKT

AND many of Australia’s native flora NEEDS fire to germinate!

30 09 2010
brad

I can understand mis-guided attempts at forest preservation in S.E.Aust,however im not sure i can forgive JH.Too lock up 1000’s of acres of eucalypt forest and let it build up may give the appearance of pristine native forest,but im am sure if you could transport a local indiginous settlement from many millenna ago and show them this now they would shreik in terror akin too a coastal dweller witnessing the sea retreating out at a fast rate.These people managed one of the most hostile(if not the most) bushfire regions in the world for 1000’s of years and some of our more savvy farmers have always paid heed too their land management practices.seems that most of this is lost on our more recent (so-called enlightened) landlords.Its still head in the sand time in the Yarra Valley im sad too say.

30 09 2010
James Hunter

When my family lived on a properety west of Armidale NSW in the granite country, we used to burn off the areas with trees about every three years on rotation in the winter cooler months. That way no problems.
Places that I have seen in the Blue Mountains and in the Adelaide hills with western red cedar clad pole houses in the hilly bits with undergroth growing up underneath them. Criminal.The councils should not allow building there in the first instance and the CFS should have authority and manpower to dothe job if the land owner cant or wont and bill then for it.

30 09 2010
brad

I have many freinds who live in the upper reaches of th Yarra Valley-Warburton,Wesburn,ect and the local CFA has given notice too many people that their houses have been designated as “kindling” if a wild fire should run through.The burn-off and clearing laws are outrageous,they’ve taken all the power off the land holder for proper management,and replaced it with nothing.I’ve only ever driven through Western NSW once or twice but would love too have a look around one day.(hopefully not in a caravan with my full kit of daily tablets-ha ha)

1 10 2010
AlyssaKT

You didn’t do that worksheet Martin gave you, did you?

“TO/TOO
Just remember that the only meanings of “too” are “also” (“I want some ice cream too.”) and “in excess” (“Your walkman is playing too loudly.”). Note that extra O. It should remind you that this word has to do with adding more on to something. “To” is the proper spelling for all the other uses.”
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/to.html

😉

30 09 2010
pb

the conditions for the black saturday fires were well beyond extreme, they aren’t the sort of conditions that occur frequently – the only two other times they’ve been so bad were the 1939 black friday fires and 1983 ash wednesday fires. the other issue is proximity to the bush – if you live further than 1km form bushland, you have an incredibly low risk.

7 06 2012
bunnyplush

Save the planet now. Kill yourself.

27 09 2010
Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse.

LOL. I wonder if the bogan turns the plasma off during Earth Hour? Probably not, Lisa McCune might be fronting a crime show at the time.

27 09 2010
Brimstone

i keep my lights on during Earth Hour because i believe in human progress, technology, and not sending ourselves back to the Dark Ages for a bit of clumsy symbolism

27 09 2010
Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse.

LOL. I instruct all the staff to ensure EVERY chandelier is running at maximum wattage and all on, even the ones in the garden sheds.

27 09 2010
Brimstone

i want to make a counter-festival, with an engine that just pumps CO2 into the atmosphere during Earth Hour

27 09 2010
Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse.

LOL. I suppose I could help. I could have Chauffeur run ALL the cars at that time.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Brimstone,
Considering the bogans ability to smoke two packets of cigarettes per day they individually create more polution then their RV.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

Yeah dude, I’m pretty sure every other hour of every other day IS this counter-festival. That’s kind of the point, you see?

27 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

Fiona, with your worldly font of knowledge conferred by study in the classics, can answer this burning question about lighting chandeliers in a responsible manner: no, I know the answer is most certainly NOT CFL or LED (incandescent, natch), nor is it wattage (c’mon, when there’s 60 watts, why bother with 40 or 25?), but it is “clear or pearl, twisted or regular candle?”

I believe that is the important question and I’ll be most enlightened (no pun intended) to receive your wisdom in this matter.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

BOT,
Burning question? very good. you were Waxing lyrical there

28 09 2010
devil's advocate

Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse. (09:47:09) said: ‘LOL. I instruct all the staff to ensure EVERY chandelier is running at maximum wattage and all on, even the ones in the garden sheds.’

God. Is there anything more distasteful or nouveau-bogue than an electric chandelier? I bet the bogue-friends think it’s heaps clarsy n’ that.

27 09 2010
pb

you’re a techno-optimist, are you, brimstone?

27 09 2010
Brimstone

yep! comes from living in a country with actual technology

27 09 2010
pb

don’t you recognise that a blind assumption that we’ll be able to solve any problem is a bit naive? we cannot always find technological solutions to problems, particularly those related to the environment – the hole in the ozone layer being a clear example. there was whining then about what would happen when we stopped using cfcs – there was no economic collapse, and stopping the use of cfcs has led the hole in the ozone layer to almost close. reducing our wastefulness and moving to renewable technologies will reduce our production on greenhouse gases, so why oppose that? it makes no sense.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

A techno-optimist climate change nihilist?

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Deluded.

27 09 2010
Tone

I put MORE lights on during Earth Hour because the electricity stations are still generating plenty of electricity, and the electricity companies aren’t going to switch ’em off just to let a few NABs do the environment equivalent of pissing into their own wetsuit.

Power stations aren’t like a Chevodore where you can just turn the key and drive off: the power generating turbines take a long time to fire up and then turn off again. A lot longer than an hour, anyway.

27 09 2010
Dgusten

Yeah, I’m also too cool for symbolism – it’s such a waste of time…

Brimstone, you’ve inspired me to go steal a few aboriginal children on Sorry Day.

Perhaps I might smother a baby or two on Red Nose Day?

You’re an idiot.

27 09 2010
Brimstone

“Yeah, I’m also too cool for symbolism – it’s such a waste of time…”

no, i believe in the power of symbolism. and ‘turning out the lights’ is a symbol of turning back on Reason, on rationality, on the Light of Truth and Science

27 09 2010
pb

no, the point is not over-using energy. if people are challenged to think about their energy usage and don’t leave every light on all the time then that’s a great thing.

27 09 2010
Dgusten

Ah, so you’re being symbolic in your rabid consumption? Doesn’t sound like “clumsy symbolism” at all!

28 09 2010
julie

“clumsy symbolism”…spot on

27 09 2010
Pendant

The irony of the whole event is that many a bogue loves to watch the live footage of all the lighting dimming in the major cities… ugh… getting depressed now

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Well you can’t go outside, the climate is changing you know.

27 09 2010
Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse.

LOL. Perhaps they invite all their neighbours from the street to watch it and have a massive BBQ at the same time? Of course, the neighbours would drive to the event.

27 09 2010
Gavin

“and a 16 burner barbecue so powerful that it needs to be bolted into the pavers to prevent it from launching vertically when ignited.” absolutely classic line

27 09 2010
Brimstone

if Australians were in charge we’d never have gone to the Moon because it’s not ‘sustainable’

27 09 2010
vivisection

What in tangible terms did going to the moon achieve? Apart from getting there before the Russians?

27 09 2010
Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse.

LOL. Modern electronics, microchip technology, miniaturisation and of course, the pen that writes upside down…

27 09 2010
vivisection

Don’t forget dehydrated space food.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Everyone knows no one went to the moon. Stanley Kubrick filmed the fake landing with NASA and CIA help. Cmon.

27 09 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

I thought you meant the pen that you tip upside down and the lady’s clothes fall off…

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Fi, Why would you want to make notes when you are lying on your back ? Opps . Sorry was not thinking !!

28 09 2010
Sbb

Pen that writes upside down … Ahh that would be the previously discovered pencil

27 09 2010
Brimstone

EXACTLY. this is the small-minded, results-focused Ludditism that PISSES ME OFF about this country. who cares about glory? who cares about human knowledge? who cares about passionate exploration? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO let’s tear down any new bit of tech

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Brim, us Aussies often think Americans focus to much on glory and not enough on results and finishing things so there you go.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

Has it occurred to you that we can keep your precious technology and care about climate change at the same time? In fact, we can, and indeed have, create new technology that is less harmful to the environment.

27 09 2010
Brimstone

like the nuclear power that’s been powering America for 40 years but that you still refuse to use?

27 09 2010
Chairman Miaow

um. swapping one problem (carbon) for another (waste that is toxic for centuries) seems best avoided.

27 09 2010
SD

Umm, hope there are no more radium girl cases in that 40 year use.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

good thing our ancestors decided the risk of using fire was acceptable ? Opps they were wrong too they were carbon poluters ?
but there were not many so it was ok.
we want both ..a run away population and a non poluting one ? time to get on the mushrooms

29 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

Britain still has nuclear waste from since half a century ago that is sitting in cold bath temporary storage, awaiting disposal.

When the disposal issue has been rectified, maybe then nuclear power could have some credibility as a broad-based solution to energy needs.

Beyond being a fuel source for those countries entirely bereft of other renewable alternatives, I honestly do not see it as a viable alternative, certainly not here in sunny, windy and tidal Australia. Nuclear doesn’t even make economic sense here…not unless you stand to get your dick in the till from mining, refining and handling the stuff, where big bikkies can be made for those involved.

29 09 2010
James Hunter

BOT,
We should mine the ore ,as we do, then process and concentrate it into fuel rods for lease to reactors world wide. the rods are returned to us ,on exchanfge, for reprocessing. The waste goes into “Synroc” and burried in the deseart.
Australia makes Squillions of $ and at the same time controlls the use of the product. As a side benifit we can use it for our own power reactors.
You realise im sure that the reactor designs are vastly different to early ones. much safer and much less easily used for anti social purposes.
The only thing holiing us back is illinformed predjudice.
Surely at least some of us are past that ?
Problem, most of the politicians are not and foney rabbit is more interested in behaving like a schoolyard bully then the leader of a viable opposition leader.

29 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

Maybe. And as I was alluding to, where those countries that don’t have access to renewables, I’d be amenable to the idea of leasing uranium rods to those nations, having the spent fuel returned to us to be processed into Synroc, to be (reasonably) safely disposed of in an isolated and geologically stable location…after all, if we mine and sell something like this, it should be beholden to us to have it returned and close the loop.

However, we do need to exercise restraint in how much uranium we process and sell, for the best grade ores are only fairly limited in lifespan (<100 years) and that despite the fission-based power generation process not producing any substantial greenhouse gases as such, the mining, process (similar to aluminium in that it requires two distinct phases where the latter consumes ferocious amounts of electricity to bring it to a metallic state), handling and the construction of reactors all use sizeable amounts of energy, usually carbon based. Thus we need to allocate the resource more effectively, ergo no real need to build these cumbersome, costly, slow to commission and near-uninsureable plants here, given we have an embarrassment of riches in the way of renewable energy; leave that for the dense, often cold places that have nothing else to use and where it is better suited.

The cause for responsible nuclear energy is little helped by the mining and energy companies that make their money from this mineral: their approach is not a sober one generally speaking, and it is something of an own-goal in the PR battle for the hearts and minds of the greater public. It's no small wonder why people are against it aside from the already-compelling environmental arguments.

Until we have these sort of mature and considered attitudes displayed by the proponents of nuclear energy, I will remain rather against it, and stand firmly against the use of it here primarily on economic and resource allocation terms.

27 09 2010
Pendant

Agree with you 100% Brimstone. Knowledge and exploration couldn’t be a lower priority in this country and it sh*ts me to tears.
Everyone seems to have a GPS navigator bolted on to their windscreens but do you think we could ever get public support for launching the satellites (assuming they didn’t exist already)? Of course not.

27 09 2010
Jen

Agreed. I loled.

27 09 2010
Eh

I dunno, wouldn’t you have to turn the BBQ over for a vertical launch?

28 09 2010
stamp

I don’t think so cus the burnery things face down and then the flames lick up. With enough force down you get lift off.
I think Brimstone may be riling you all up on purpose. tee hee

27 09 2010
Brimstone

I’m a Climate Change Nihilist – we’re going to die before Climate Change becomes important so let’s stop the self-flagellation and enjoy our technology

27 09 2010
Shirley M

I take it you don’t have children, you never plan to have children, and no one you care about has children.

27 09 2010
pb

or know anyone living on a low-lying island or delta, or in an area prone to cyclones.

27 09 2010
Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse.

LOL. I don’t know anyone like that.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Fi
If we cannot hear their cries for help then they do not exist.

29 09 2010
Josh

Fiona, can you start any comment without saying lol?

27 09 2010
Sibyl Ince

Shirley, you have to be kidding, right. The owners of children have the biggest carbon footprint of all. All the plasticware, indisposable nappies, the mileage covered delivering the loinfruit to school, appointments, sports. Parents should be taxed more heavily for the amountof non-biodegradable shit their homes contain.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

I hate that attitude. It’s ridiculously selfish, small-minded and reeks of sweeping stereotypes.

27 09 2010
Sibyl Ince

And no less true.

Diddums.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

Grow up. The window of what you see to be ‘the truth’ is so tiny, you don’t really see anything at all.

27 09 2010
Sibyl Ince

My, my, my, it seems I found your defensive streak. I wonder how? Anyway, can you lower your hackles for a minute, they’re obscuring my view of the harbour.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

It’s defensive to have an opinion that differs from yours? An opinion you can’t even argue? Stick to pretending to be clever and funny. You’re crap at it, but at least it makes you happy.

27 09 2010
Sibyl Ince

Yeah Shirl, your responses to me reek defensiveness, all can see that for themselves. I can’t help it if your sensitivities aren’t well enough covered. I haven’t argued anything. All I did was make a statement, and look now look at you. You’re doing all the arguing on your own. Wassamatter? It’s ok by you to poke fun at a portion of society when it suits you, but your habits and lifestyle are sacrosanct? How so?

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Sibyl,
maybe too much leaky cock ?

27 09 2010
Shirley M

You’re a complete idiot. You don’t even know what my habits and lifestyle are. I’m not arguing for myself, I’m arguing against your limited point of view that reflects on something that is relevant to a massive chunk of the population.

Some childless people are irresponsible. Some parents are irresponsible. You live in a society of humans. Humans include children. Deal with it.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

Not at all JH. We’ve never met.

27 09 2010
Chairman Miaow

Dear oh dear Sibyl. Are you being deliberately stupid, or are you really that offensive?

Was it you with half-arsed racist nonsense a couple of weeks back?

Bitter little gnome aren’t you.

Now, I agree, let’s tax parents more. Oh wait, they are. GST on everything we buy.

It costs a fortune to raise the adults who will continue your lifestyle as you age, wipe your arse in the home and come up with the technologies that will keep you alive. They may even discover the cure to the carbon-warming conundrum.

Mind you, I read back now and I don’t really get what you’re stating. That parents are polluters because they consume on behalf of the little tackers?

I assume that means you buy absolutely nothing for anyone around you. Miserable much?

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Shirl,
Any one who realy wants to save the environment on a global scale should promote birth control as a first priority. Without that we are doomed.
Our wasteful race are close to peak for a number of resources asside from oil. Phosphate to fertilise the ground to grow the food for the increasing billions, Gallium and rhodium and palladfium for the integrated circuits for thew electric toys for the growing billions
Platinum for the catalyic converters .
There are others too. Go google “peak resources” or “peak metals “or “peak fertilizersd” and see what you will see.

27 09 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

Too true.

But I shall be a hippy mother buying my kids stuff from the op shop and cloth nappies all the way!!

27 09 2010
AlyssaKT

Cloth nappies are super cute and easy these days!
I abhor disposables.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

My original remark referred to Brimstone’s selfish comment that we’ll all be dead before climate change really matters, so let’s just do whatever we want.

I’m not suggesting that having piles of children is good for the environment. I am fully aware of the peak oil, peak everything else crisis. I am sick of people claiming that people with children should pay more tax for a variety of reasons. People who say this are invariably childless and only see the argument from their own side. Thing is, people who have children have also been people who haven’t had children.

27 09 2010
SD

Yeah why don’t we all vote for ceasing our existence right away – we are all a drain on the environment after all and why wait till we kick the bucket at 90.

You can’t argue for nature (re protecting it) and then argue against it (be childless).

27 09 2010
Shirley M

Well said, SD.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Nice one. It’s simple common sense really. Do we want a great place to live or do we want to continue to pollute the crap out of it and pretend it does not matter because we are going to die anyway. Not a hard choice. Showing some sense of care and responsability would seem logical.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

SD,
Sounds good, lets start by legalising euthanasia.
If you allowed nature to take its course then we would all breed ourselves into extinction.
Well extinction after canibalism and wars, plague ,famin . we will reach a stage where the only thing we wont have to worry about will be locusts… we wont have left enough for the locusts to get a feed. !

27 09 2010
SD

JH, I get so bored by these breeding arguments. Its been on for ages. In fact its probably fears of a vast, thieving, breeding underclass that sent off a whole lot of them to Australia in 1788. Maybe they should have sterilised the whole lot of them and left this place all pristine?

28 09 2010
dean

27 09 2010
brad

may-be parents like me could just do away with flogs like you who are consuming precious recources that would be put too better use by being consumed by MY children.

27 09 2010
Brimstone

“I take it you don’t have children, you never plan to have children, and no one you care about has children.”

this is true

27 09 2010
Shirley M

The absence of a question mark indicated that your answer wasn’t required, as it was totally obvious in your attitude.

27 09 2010
vivisection

I love the ads on tv offering Bogans the once in a lifetime opportunity to invest in maaxtreme potential growth etc with QR National. What a conundrum for the bogan indeed. Publicy Green, but secretly wanting to invest in QR Rail that moves over 500 tonnes of coal around the country……

27 09 2010
Brimstone

how about we fight against the pervasive hippie ideology choking this country?

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Ah climate change and carbon offsets. Somehow I feel this is another opportunity for the gubmint to make money selling non existing entities and taxing the crap out of them. Also were we told in the 1990’s that the sea level would rise by x number of metres by 2010? I went to the beach yesterday and it looked normal to me.

I’m all for protecting the environment but stop bullshitting us that selling carbon will help.

27 09 2010
Brimstone

FUCKING HELL. in this country even the ‘rednecks’ are hippies. climate change is happening, but it will happen after we’re dead so stop worrying about it and stop using it as an excuse to fight human progress. seriously… is there nobody in this country who isn’t on the ‘save the Earth/save the whales’ bandwagon?
our planet is heating up from the strength of mankind’s passion and the glory of it’s technology and that same technology will find a solution. nuclear, flying to other planets, whatever
but here even the bogans have to pretend to be green

27 09 2010
djm

You are repeating yourself. Are you a bot?

27 09 2010
SD

Brimstone, last time I checked Al Pacino-er Gore-was American and it was his power point presentation – er documentary – that seems to have set off the carbon offset craze. And doesn’t the US have a fair few carbon millionaires by now? So your rant about Australia seems a bit misplaced. Also a technology may be a beautiful thing in itself but its selling and use is another matter – great to have mobiles, not so great a million monkeys chattering the same rubbish on it (as on my train) or have millions of discarded pieces circulating the globe (hello India, here is a good dump).

I think TBL’s politics are quite clear but surely their point is that bogans – Australian or otherwise – have an acute sensor for any passing fad and jump on to it without quite knowing anything about it.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Simon
the most sensible thing would be to go fully nuclear. We have the raw material and we could make fuel rods for lease to reactors round the world then we take then back, reprocess and put the waste as Synroc under the deseart. Meanwhile make as much electricity as we need. electrify all our railways, desalinate as much water as we need. The hippies that dont like it can go live in Tasmania and freeze in the dark

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Hippies suck Jimmie, bring in the black helicoptors.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Simon,
Surley there be targets apleanty.

29 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

Hippies well aside, if I were to speak on purely economic terms, nuclear in Australia simply doesn’t make any sense, unless, as mentioned here before, you’re one of a select few who stand to make a killing on the handling and processing of this material, which is where the mining companies stand to gain.

With renewables aplenty and the costs steadily falling, not to mention the relative minimal ongoing costs in upkeep involved (hey, no need to dig shit up!), presently as renewables stand, it’s at parity and falling with fission as a mainstream grid source: no wonder the uranium industry loves to spread their misinformation, based on pure self-interest, buggered be what is best in the long term national interest.

Now that’s what I despise about the nuclear lobby, regardless of the scope for high imbedded energy requirements and long lead times to realise their systems, the possible misappropriation of fissile material and the potential for large-scale environmental hazards (rarely things go wrong, but when they do…well).

27 09 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

I dip my hat to you TBL, this was a nice chortle to be welcomed back to work with.

Just spoke to my mum about a St Kilda-loving femme bogue she works with.
On Saturday morning her son crushed his hand loosing several fingers (appropriately it’s cos he was working on his motorbike).

Bogue-mum chose to go to the grand final rather than the hospital. Pure class.

27 09 2010
Fiona of Toorak, bestower of largesse.

LOL. Oh my word, that is ridiculous! She should have shown more foresight and realised she could just go next week instead.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Fi,
She should have shown more sense and worked on the motor bike !

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

My bike is made of carbon fibre. Do I get a credit for this?

27 09 2010
Benny Hill

Pushbike?

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Yep.

27 09 2010
amr

No, It’s not recyclable.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I see what you did there, very good amr.

27 09 2010
amr

Maybe your carbon forks are already offset.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I would hate to bring this chain to an end by not pedalling the fact that we are at a fork and can either say on the seat or change gears and renew the cycle.

27 09 2010
amr

Sounds taxing.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I think I need a carbonated drink.

27 09 2010
amr

Make sure it’s one imported from far away, with added colour and sugar (read 50 essential daily vitamins), in a coloured plastic bottle with a f*#k off name. Then when finished drinking, you can drive to South Oz (if you’re not here already) and can get 10c back on your expensive purchase and do your bit for the environment by recycling.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I’m there already. You were not trying to derailer things are you?

27 09 2010
amr

Not that cognitive.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Sorry, another bike term.

27 09 2010
amr

Got it, was just adding mine

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Ah, trumped! That would put me in the bottom bracket.

27 09 2010
amr

Just gear up for another

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I’m not sure you could clincher another one so soon.

27 09 2010
amr

Spoken like one who knows their craft

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Just a minor obsession AMR.

27 09 2010
amr

We all need one obsession to keep us sane internally and seemingly crazy externally to all and sundry.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I does keep me sane so to speak. Fresh air, exersize, good friends etc. The lycra bit screams mad to the external world.

27 09 2010
amr

Have a mate who has just taken up the lycra clad obsession too but he does regale me with stories from his cycling mad Saturday mornings of which I refuse to take part, given I have 3 obsessions already.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

It is strangely addictive. I have been doing it for almost 2 years now and it is a great social sport and certainly lets me get my competetive instincts out.

27 09 2010
amr

I do see its merits and I have enjoyed watching the big tour on the telly over the last few years, more so now understanding the individual/group roles and tactics.
Good luck to you.
I’ll stick to my current 3 which pretty much consume all my spare time, money and energy, thereby keeping me fit as well.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Thanks dude.

27 09 2010
Pandabater

Is the bike Green?

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Sadly no. Carbon fibre grey/black with yellow highlights. Oh my tyres are fluro green. Does this count?

27 09 2010
Pandabater

If it’s not green you can’t get any credits.;-)

27 09 2010
TurnThePlage

This has been published before. Google says it was numbered #164 once, and I’m sure that it had a much earlier index too.

Yep, we accidentally put two up one morning for about 90 seconds, and held this one over. TBL

27 09 2010
Shirley M

I thought I had read this before! I’m pleased to discover I’m not head mental.

27 09 2010
AlyssaKT

Me too! We’d received it by email…
I’d wondered what happened to it a few times – then completely forgot until I read “constitutional privileges include the right to own a thin-walled McMansion and artificially control its temperature to 18 degrees in summer and 28 degrees in winter, the right to low-cost, high-speed private transport, and the right to consume petrol as recreation.”
So true…

27 09 2010
Smith

Loved the “the bogan is simply a change denier” comment – exactly!

27 09 2010
Thomas

It’s an immensely satisfying feeling knowing that the bogan, the scourge of the earth, is not a climate change sceptic. I find it really uplifting knowing that being able to question the evidence using constructed, reasonable arguments is yet to be sullied by boganism in all its glory.

27 09 2010
Pendant

‘question the evidence’ 😀
I love CC sceptics. Foot, meet bullets

27 09 2010
Pendant

Holy crap TBL has emoticons. Who knew? xD

27 09 2010
dereknclive

peak piffle…theres plenty of resources to go around as long as you live in a western democracy like our wonderful one. Theres s-tins of metals and hydrocarbons left to be found in busted arse countries, and more if we strip mine Antarctica. Send in the dozers I say

27 09 2010
AntiPajero

Can you imagine how much driving a truck in the Antarctic mines would pay?
Boag-ching, baby!

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

You’d probably get on TV as well!! Ice Truckers Aussie style.

27 09 2010
AntiPajero

The problematic carbon is produced nowhere near any trees, and sent way up stratosphere-wards. Just about all the offsetting solutions are based groundwards.

I’d support an offset project that would somehow ground the carbon and send it away to the old forests. Or the botanical gardens. Or my garden. I’m sure my ferns would appreciate it.

Unless they can find a way to hang these carbon offset forests in the sky, the companies peddling them are scams.

Wait… when did the title banner change? Is it due to something Ed Hardy closure-related?

27 09 2010
TheBattlersPrince

Nothing against you AntiPajero, but doesn’t ‘Pajero’ mean ‘wanker’ in Spanish slang? On second thought, it’s nothing bad on you, since you’re against it….

27 09 2010
AntiPajero

Google translate says “Gilipollas”. I did, however, find this discussion.

I’m actually against suburban four-wheel-drivers. They only need 4WD because they mount the gutter every time they turn, park or hit ‘send’. The Pajero seems to be the predomintating menace.

30 09 2010
Goose

Sorry, but I don’t see how the carbon being produced nowhere near the trees is a problem. Trees draw carbon from the atmosphere, which is all around us. The carbon produced in Sydney doesn’t stay in Sydney, it moves around.

27 09 2010
Bec

I wonder at the knd of science that gets questioned. It’s never physics or chemistry, but always that which impacts on our lifestyles: medicine and environmental science. Is it a case of us wanting to separate our actions from their external consequences? Is it because we experience these things more and believe our experience counts for more than printed data which is intangible and inaccessible if you aren’t trained to analyse it?

Fuck it. We don’t have “complementary nuclear science” or “civil engineering denialism”. I’ll live a lifestyle in which I can minimise my impact on others, and leave arguing about science to the people more qualified than I. Hint: this doesn’t include wanky right wingers whose sole scientific qualification is a degree in “the real world” as bestowed by the School of Hard Knocks.

27 09 2010
Bec

Boo, swearing moderation.

28 09 2010
lol-plates

That is because Physics is real science anything else is stamp collecting. I say this as a Chemist/stamp collector (physics of the outer-shell electrons) lol.

Anything else is wussy 😛

27 09 2010
Benny Hill

Here in the bogan Mecca that is the Gold Coast all bogans be they old school, new school or too cool for school (tradies) flat out deny climate change. None of them want to listen Live Aid, they don’t know who Al Gore is let alone his horse bangin skank of a missus, Tipper. The extent of their global warming experiences comes from sun-burn while driving around with their tops off or the car overheating while Shaz tried to find her lighter at the same time as searching the stacker for her Pink album which has melted on the rear parcel shelf.

El Nino, El Nina, El fucking what ever.

27 09 2010
urbanreverie

How ironic, considering that the Gold Coast, of all Australian cities, has by far the most to lose from climate change! The entire city is, like, 17 centimetres above sea level; the sand dunes have been obliterated to make way for high-rise apartments thus reducing even further the physical resilience of the coastline; and the fact that there are so many estates built on a vast network of artificial canals mean tidal surges will have a far greater extent.

27 09 2010
pb

they’ve been hit by cyclones before, too – 1954 a category 3 cyclone. another one will hit someday.

28 09 2010
Benny Hill

Are you confusing Surfers with the entire Gold Coast?

27 09 2010
urbanreverie

Slightly off topic … but I went on a country drive last night,and on my travels I crossed the Il-Bogan Bridge. Just beyond the bridge I saw a sign for Il-Bogan Road.

My source at the Geographic Names Board reckons these were named after a particularly sick patient at Ipswich Hospital. 🙂

27 09 2010
TheBattlersPrince

That, or a really bad attempt at faux-Italian, inadvertantly channeling a certain fascist Italian leader circa WWII…

27 09 2010
chris

When I walk my dog, I always pick up the poo and put it in the little baggies. However the dirty little sod eats more poo that he excretes so he must be poo neutral. In fact, I think i should get poo credits.

27 09 2010
AlyssaKT

Little plastic baggies?

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Biodegradable plastic ?

27 09 2010
chris

Nahh, the kind that choke baby dolphins.

28 09 2010
SD

Or maybe albatrosses (via etsy today)

http://www.chrisjordan.com/gallery/midway/#about

27 09 2010
Shirley M

Off topic, but I’d like to share with you the bogan facebook status update of the day:

XXX is going to spend the day infront of my 50″ plasma and watch movies, better yet play the Wii.

27 09 2010
vivisection

Shirley, Here’s one I found, which demonstrates my theory that Bogans love the Beatles.

Boguette 1: “Dear KHAT tanks for be my friend and help me in that moment .U know ? John Lennon said:
I GET BY WITH A LITTLE HELP FROM MY FRIENDS. IM WERE MISSING U KISSES FO EVERYBODY SEE YOU SOON”

Boguette 2: “then he got shot and died don’t think i want his friends, tell oscar shut up 1 hour the house is too quiet again, i tell XXX when you come everybody is excited and when you go it’s so empty , oscar missed a good sale the 7/11 servo had $1 day today they had energy drinks, chocolate,donuts chips ice cream for $1 each ha ha oscar”

27 09 2010
Shirley M

Sorry Viv but it proves nothing. John Lennon didn’t say that at all. 😉

The Beatles line is the only line of that exchange I am able to understand, however.

27 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

Again, viv, I’ll beg to differ: if you, like myself, have a deeper appreciation for the works, ideas, lives and times of the Beatles, that requires a level of consciousness and consideration that the majority of bogans simply cannot muster.

Because I have a deep knowledge and profound love of what the Beatles have done with their music and beyond, does not render me a bogan. Those people probably have only got a copy of 1 or Sgt Pepper and most likely only happened upon them by their sheer pervasive presence that still looms large over popular music. Like them or don’t, they did break a lot of doors open that were otherwise shut and blazed a trail for others to follow and go further from.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I guess boy bands had to start somewhere.

27 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

Ringo sang it, but John did have a hand in writing it, with the early working title of “Bad Finger Boogie”, named in honour of a sore finger he was nursing as wrote away at the piano. Plus that interim title was an inspiration for renaming a band, The Iveys, signed to their Apple label, to Badfinger, of whom did work alongside each of the Fabs at various points in the late 60s and early 70s, best recognised for their pioneering power-pop songs “No Matter What”, “Baby Blue” and “Day After Day”. Ultimately, they had a tragic demise due to managerial shenanigans, with two of the quartet meeting their maker dangling at the end of a rope.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

It feels like a predominantly Paul written song to me.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I said BOY BAND!

27 09 2010
Shirley M

You sure did. Twice now.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I hate it when no one bites.

27 09 2010
Shirley M

I know, tiger. I know. 😉

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Thanks champ.

27 09 2010
martin

The Beatles set the scene for the next 20-30 years of pop music. So you wouldn’t have had all that good shit like Bowie and Kate Bush, Genesis, and all that shit. So there.

The Beatles from Revolver, or maybe even Rubber Soul, up until the end was the good stuff, minus most of Paul’s work. So, basically John Lennon’s stuff and a couple of George Harrison songs like ‘Something’ and ‘While my Guitar Gently Weeps’.

It’s a bit late to get into it now though imo. It was a good accompaniment to the grunge and libtard jjj shit in the 90s for me.

27 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

John and Paul both indeed wrote it expressly as a vehicle for Ringo.

27 09 2010
Clipper

I’d say the Beatles are one of the last great bands that are loved by both the bogans and non bogans alike. It really did take great skill to have such great records sound so simple and so catchy.

28 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

Of which none of the boy bands that SGaA misguidedly associates the Beatles by, can do themselves (i.e. predominantly write, play and compose their own works).

Before they came along, few very successful pop artists wrote and played mostly their own material and virtually no groups were without a dedicated frontperson, whereby instead they were all viewed as similarly important within a unit, something of a first. Also they were instrumental in opening up the interaction between artist and studio technicians to expand the sound palette available (no mean feat in the days of both strict guidelines for techies to follow and the primitive technology (valves, 4-track tape, nothing digital) on offer in the mid-1960s).

I’m certainly not trying to convince our esteemed glass master to like or even respect them, but perhaps acknowledge some of the objective consequences of their successes in forging then-newly viable pathways for others to take…sure, those advances no doubt will have occurred, but perhaps about five or seven years later than was the case.

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

BOT, Shirl and I have a long history of me stirring her re The Beatles. All good fun. Never really been a fan though but happy to acknowledge their contribution to music history etc.

28 09 2010
vivisection

That’s how Shirley and I first met – I announced the Beatles were bogans, for bogans and how we bickered. Oh the sweet memories.

28 09 2010
Shirley M

Good times, good times.

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Look how far we have progressed!

29 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

You have, you have 😛

No offence taken, just like to clarify as is my wont: hey, what’s a stir amongst the regular denizens?

If you were a bogan, you wouldn’t have come to that conclusion. And a bogan you ain’t!

28 09 2010
chris

the 50″ plasma was obviously the reward for squeezing out little Jaxxxon at the Lyell McKewen

28 09 2010
Shirley M

You have no idea how right you are.

27 09 2010
Bec

Apropos of nothing, have just moved house to a place with a charming little small business called D’Ziah Personal Training. Mainly just a bit peeved: D’Ziah would be such a lovely girl’s name…

28 09 2010
vivisection

D’Ziah’s sister would have to be called S’luht.

27 09 2010
Edward

Just a thought, the gas jets of a barbeque are on the upper surface and face upwards, aren’t they ? Otherwise the cooking surface would be (rather impractically) on the underside ….

27 09 2010
TheBattlersPrince

Unless TBL is ahead of the BBQ market and is about to release a BBQ that cooks from ALL angles, especially from underneath so as (referencing George Foreman) to ‘knock out the fat’…

27 09 2010
chubbybloodfart BBo

bravo TBL
staggering.
I first heard about carbon trading back in the eighties in a book called The Gaia Hypohesis.
All the bleating and angsting from both sides still ignores the original premise which was to trade carbon for clean tech in the third world.
I still doubt the majority of the opinionated even begin to comprehend what the “carbon” issue is. the most rudimentary organic chemistry being beyond bogues and non bogues alike.
Fuck knows what else has been said. I stopped reading at Brimstone. The same ignorant shit from both sides. No-one has a clue, they just pick a team.
For mine, if my doctor told me I had cancer, I wouldn’t ask my butcher for a second opinion. I used to be more passionate about these sorts of things but I just gave up. Humans are idiots. We probably deserve to drown in our own shit or fry in our own fat.

Commenting live from Darwin. Today I have seen every shade of skin colour there is. Darwin would be a beautiful place if it was located somewhere near Sydney. The heat is merciless.

where can I get the book please?

Please?
I’m sorry if there was an announcement. I was in the desert or lost on a beach or something.

Anyone know where I can buy pot in Darwin?

27 09 2010
Shirley M

You know what? I do.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Go to the Divers Tavern and ask for Bert.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Chubby,
Ignorance is widspread and mixed with prejudice and feeding on the lies of politicians will be the end of us all. Eventually. I suspect that a few dozen Nutron Bombs carefully distributed may do humanity a power of good.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

re pot, stop anyone on a Harley and ask.

27 09 2010
brad

Moil-just ask for Moil foil

27 09 2010
Tombarina

CC may be real. It may not. It may be huge. It may be minor. Al Gore may be a genius, or a nutjob.

But here’s the thing. If CC is real, and the upshot is as diabolical as some reasonably bright sausages like Mr T. Flannery seem to think, then why screw with it?

I might be able to go for a dip in the Roper River, and emerge from the water in one piece. Or, I may be torn to pieces by a rather large crocodile. Not a chance I’m prepared to take.

There’s an awful lot each individual can do to minimise their carbon footprint, without having to wear nasty scratchy hair shirts or eat $hite like tofu. Being aware of food miles, refusing to reward marketers for their stupid expensive excess packaging, being energy smart, for example – and apart from that warm gooey feeling, you also end up with more $ in your pocket.

27 09 2010
SD

Tomba good points but please don’t call Mr. Flannery reasonably bright. I happened to have worked in an area related to environmental chem in the past (not a skeptic group to clarify) and the general consensus in that group was that he’s a publicity seeking moron 🙂

27 09 2010
pb

really? because i’ve heard him speak at a climate change conference (i’m a phd student researching a climate change-related topic) and he’s actually pretty sensible and pragmatic. he likes to get his head on tv, sure, but he isn’t the extreme greenie he’s been painted as.

27 09 2010
SD

Well we were doing a small project related to air pollution and the guys I knew were contributing to a bit of the UN report related to that area (albeit in a minor way) and that was their opinion. I think scientists tend to be cautious – these guys were engineers and had worked in climate change for a long time and were extremely cautious about their conclusions whereas TF and the like tend to grandstand. I am also not sure how much scientific credibility his work has given that he hasn’t worked in the tech related aspects?

27 09 2010
pb

well, this was an international adaptation conference with some big names, so i’d say his work has pretty strong credibility. of course, his work is in the adaptation side rather than the pure climate science, so maybe some tech people don’t like him commenting on some of the tech aspects. still, he’s a clear speaker, which is important – some of the tech scientists can be too complex for a lay audience, whereas flannery is very good at that sort of thing.

27 09 2010
SD

That’s true pb. In fact these guys were of the opinion that Gore’s doco while dumbed down had its basic facts right but weren’t convinced by the Flannery books. And while tech scientists are not good speakers their work is what the science rests on.

Anyway my brief interaction with them indicated that its quite a politicised field and the modelling guys rule 🙂

28 09 2010
Benny Hill

Boring.

28 09 2010
SD

My apologies, we exist to ensure that you are never bored.

28 09 2010
pb

it’s only boring if you’re not smart enough to understand.

27 09 2010
urbanreverie

Couldn’t have said it better myself, Tomba.

It’s called the “precautionary principle”. In short, lack of full scientific consensus must not prevent taking appropriate cautions.

This incessant kerfuffle over climate change reminds me so much of the 1950s when the tobacco industry and their paid shills refused to accept that smoking and lung cancer had a causal relationship.

And Bec also raised a great point – few of us are climate scientists; we trust scientists on the great majority of issues (a trust which the advertising industry takes advantage of when trying to sell bogans the latest laundry powder or moisturiser with “scientifically proven formulae” and lots of attractive bit-part extras in white coats) – so why is it so difficult to trust climate scientists when the overhwleming majority tell us about climate change?

28 09 2010
devil's advocate

It’s also complicated by the fact that it’s not really our risk to take – we are making the risk decision on behalf of people who aren’t really born yet – and because it directly impacts our consumption we should appoint an independent agent to decide what precautions are neccessary and how much to fund them.

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Bogan loves fossil fuel
Al Gore shakes finger at them
Ice cap melting now

Now that is a koan my friends.

27 09 2010
Twiggy Forrest

FACT

Plus, by taking the easy way out, the bogan gets to back its beloved TNC and international banker overlords, without appearing to be subservient to any particular system

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Twiggy, have you set up your carbon company yet?

27 09 2010
chubbybloodfart

“When I see, I hear. When I hear I see.”

now that’s a Koan!

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Even though that is true, if you do not know it yourself, it does you no good.

27 09 2010
Trent

We need to get into space already…. So we can nuke the Bogans left on Earth.

27 09 2010
AntiPajero

It’s the only way to be sure.

27 09 2010
Simon of South Yarra

if brimstone is still there, tell us about usa success in wars , independence and ww2 are their only wins .

korea – not finished after nearly 60 years
vietnam – lost
war against terror – losing
war in afghanistan- losing
invasion on iraq – not much joy
iran?? no change there
war against mexicans – losing

27 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I’m going to give the Poms WW2 with supporting role by US of A etc.

27 09 2010
Clipper

Plus the fact the USA came in at the end of ’41

28 09 2010
Edward

The War of Independence was won with French assistance. (A)

The War of 1812(-14) was really a French win, the British withdrew forces to face the threat posed by the return of Napoleon Bonaparte.
(A)

The annexation of California was a U.S. assistance of local secessionists, which the U.S. then broke faith with, but Mexico had drawn in on itself at that point and couldn’t hold on to it’s own territory. Likewise with the annexation of Texas (and I guess Arizona, New Mexican and Colorado by similar means they were in the Mexican zone of interest/influence but like the early history of places like the Oregon Territory not part of a federal structure). (W)

The American Civil War was successful insofar as the Union was preserved, but doesn’t really count, for lack of an external enemy.

The Spanish-American War (1898) was a U.S. win, albeit against a Sick Man of Europe empire. It was rather like pushing over a drunk who could barely stay on his feet, alone. Again, assisting local separatists in the Phillipines and Cuba (who ended up under a different hegemony. (W)

The First World War was an English-French-Italian win, American forces offset the Triple Axis’ ability reinforce the Western Front after the withdrawal of Russian forces from the conflict in the east in 1917
(A)

The Haitian intervention in 1926 was a walk into a power vacuum, over which factions insufficiently powerful to assume control were engaged in a civil war. (?)

In the Second World War the United States was genuinely the Arsenal of Freedom, notwithstanding their late arrival. (W)

Neither side achieved their political objective in the Korean War (1950-1953), and a costly stalemate continues. (D)

Vietnam (1965 (1960?) – 1973) was a U.S. loss.(L)

Grenada was school yard bullying, but a win. (W)

Various peacekeeping missions between the 1960’s and the present (Cyprus, Israel, Lebanon, Bosnia, Kosova, Rwanda, Somalia etc.) have had mixed results. Long term stabilization of the regional situation has really only occurred in the Balkan States, and the European Union can claim principal credit. L,L,L,,L,W,W,?,L)

Gulf War I (Desert Storm) was a win but uncapitalized on (wisely perhaps). (W)

Gulf War II (Desert Shield) was a punitive mission, with unclear political objectives, a dead rubber really, apart for an impermanent suppressive effect. (L)

The Afghan War is a drawn out, pyrrhic and I suspect ultimately unpromising war. The Afghans have been successfully resisting foreign intervention and influence for thousands of years. The culture there is not subject to rapid change, and though change does occur, it self-authored. The last example I can think of which took was during the Mughal period. The zone of control of Genghis Khan/Kubhilai Khans horde saw Buddhism practised there for a short time, before Islam replaced it in the western part of the empire. (L ?)

The Iraq War, was a win if you regard regime change as the sole objective. What’s left is broken, though. (W)

So I would count it as 8 wins, 6 losses, 1 draw, 2 assists, 1 win with assistance and 3 uncertains.

28 09 2010
vivisection

you forgot the war on drugs.

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

(L)

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Oh, how about the war on culture. Big win on that one.

28 09 2010
James Hunter

Simon,
9,9,8,10,10
and as Pinky would say Bahahahahahahahaha

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Thanks JH, hope Pinkster is doing well.

28 09 2010
AlyssaKT

war on fresh, vitamin-enriched foods…

29 09 2010
James, anti Anti-Intellectual

The Soviet Union won World War Two.

29 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

That’s not what Winston thinks. I’ve just read his 12 volume series WW2. Please explain J not H.

29 09 2010
James, anti Anti-Intellectual

Casualty statistics, S-GaA. The bulk of the Wehrmacht’s casualties occurred on the eastern front, in the process taking some 10-12 million Russian soldiers with them. If the back of the German armed forces has not been broken, and the bulk of their armoured divisions destroyed in the east, the Normandy invasion would never have occurred, or would have been much, much harder. The other allies – Winston especially – wanted to let the Germans and the Soviets go at it as long as possible, so as to minimise the British and American role (and thus casualties) in western Europe, and weaken the Soviets as much as possible in terms of their post-war military position. Winston wrote (and said) what he did in the context of the developing Cold War. It was politically unpalatable for the west to recognise the Soviet role in the war, and post-war anti-Soviet propaganda minimised and often sidelined the Russian role, preferring to focus on relatively minor engagements like those at Normandy, Arnheim, and in the Ardennes. Compare these skirmishes with Stalingrad, Leningrad, or Kursk (each of which alone were bigger than the British and American engagements I mention put together).

29 09 2010
SD

So should that be “The Soviet Union won WWII for us”?

29 09 2010
James, anti Anti-Intellectual

Not quite, SD. They did it for themselves. The Soviet Union had a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany, which Hitler violated by invading the Soviet Union in June 1941. Until that point, the Soviet Union didn’t care about the war at all – it was for those nutty capitalists to fight out amongst themselves. They only entered the war when they couldn’t avoid it any more (having been invaded), exactly like the Americans.

From our perspective though, yes, very much so. The war in Europe would have been very different if not for Hitler’s blunder in invaded the Soviet Union. A similar story applies to Australia and the US in the Pacific.

29 09 2010
SD

Yes, I meant the latter.

Isn’t there always the joke though that Generals Winter/Snow/Mud will win any war in Russia 🙂

29 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Adolph’s Napoleon complex lead him astray there. Lessons of the past and all that. The only thing the Russian winter does not kill is cockroaches and Russians.

29 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

All sounds good to me. In fairness Winston did like to build himself up a bit in his books. Not the shy retiring type our Winny.

27 09 2010
martin

Didn’t the yanks whoop the phillipinos arses? I remember seeing something on the history channel about how they had to make a better pistol to stop some crazy angry unarmed phillipinos from murdering them. Unarmed as in no guns.

27 09 2010
AntiPajero

Boo to this thread.
Anything woven from it will not clothe anyone.

27 09 2010
Brimstone

WTF does that have to do with climate change?

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Brimstone,
It is all caused by Chinese submarines off the coast.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

actually the Mexicns lost, thats where the southern part of the usa came from

27 09 2010
martin

I think he means how they’re coming into the country these days legal or not and providing cheap labour.

27 09 2010
James Hunter

Martin,
I understood that but was mudding the water to see which tadpole could get out of the pond.

27 09 2010
Pandabater

I’m not even going to attempt to answer the question as to whether we are causing “climate change” through the release of Carbon Dioxide, the only thing I do know is that asking us to consume more is not the answer.

Oh, and Godwin.

28 09 2010
AntiPajero

No. Just waiting for Godwin.

28 09 2010
Stu

This short film humourously demonstrates the ridiculous nature of carbon offsets “Cheat Neutral”… well worth a look

28 09 2010
vivisection

That’s a great little film! Cheers for sharing it.

28 09 2010
Phil

Off comment but…

Mother faces surgery after Burswood Casino ‘glassing’
by Staff Writers From: PerthNow September 27, 2010

A MOTHER will undergo surgery to save an eye after she was allegedly smashed in the face with a glass at Burswood Entertainment Complex overnight.

The Gosnells woman, 41, was at Paddy Hannan’s around 2am when she became involved in an altercation with another woman on the dancefloor.

Kensington Detectives have charged a 33-year-old Ferndale woman with unlawful wounding in relation to the incident.

The women had to be separated by onlookers before the accused approached the mother with a glass and allegedly threw or smashed it in her face, causing lacerations to her right eye.

The mother was rushed to Royal Perth Hospital where she is awaiting surgery.

The accused will appear in Perth Magistrates’ Court on October 12.

Police said the charges may be upgraded after further medical assessment

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

No mention if the words farkin carnt was used?

28 09 2010
vivisection

It would be assumed.

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Probably safe to assume that Viv.

28 09 2010
AlyssaKT

Casinos at 2am on a Monday mornings are always the safest places for mothers to be!

28 09 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

The kids are fine sleeping in the car. The security guards will keep an eye on them.

28 09 2010
Phil

That should have read “Off topic”

29 09 2010
Bag O'Turnips

But never too far from the remit of TBL, though always relevant the glasin’ carnts topic, from this Western outpost where the
arbitrarily authoritarian lawmaking
of Barnett Rubble meets (decidedly un-) gay yobbo abandon at the clarsy establishments like Packer’s Palace West.

5 10 2010
Jimmy

Ok then, the bogans should _really_ like the free ones:

http://www.freecarbonoffsets.com

Yeah, that’s it.

5 10 2010
AlyssaKT

Haha!

From their FAQ page:

“Q:
What exactly will you do for my carbon offsets?

A:
There are several steps we will take to do our part to help the environment, based on your level of participation:
•1-100 offsets: We will try our hardest to turn off the water for an extra ten seconds while we brush our teeth.
•101-1000 offsets: We will think about possibly using one fewer square of toilet paper every time we use the rest room. So you don’t have to!
•1001-10000 offsets: At this level, we will think about not going out to lunch for one day. Gas savings, plus savings on one less burger made that day!
•10000+ offsets: Premium offsets. We will consider not taking a shower for a whole week!”

5 10 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Try the comments page. Priceless.

1 07 2011
gkc

I have never found this one particularly convincing. My experience of boganism and climate change denialism is that they are strongly correlated. Of course, maybe I don’t move in the right boganic circles.

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