#140 – Ill-Informed Analysis of the Qu’ran

17 05 2010

The bogan holds a variety of convictions, which, whilst internally inconsistent, are rarely open to negotiation.  These opinions are based largely on the incomprehensible and contradictory whisperings of the trashmedia kraken. Because the bogan is just a soggy rodent in the waters of political discourse, it will cling to these convictions like a piece of barnacled flotsam in a particularly savage maelstrom.  The bogan can often be seen shouting in an incoherent and grammatically wrong fashion as it circles the political suckhole.

The bogan, uninterested in the high falutin’ opinions of ivory tower academics, will not have studied the relevant subject matter in even the most cursory manner. Being from the ‘real world’, the bogan understands things on a higher level than a mere academic. It is just as well the bogan has a preternatural sense for how things are in the ‘real world’, because it gets its news and views as part of the blinkered programming of one of three commercial television networks.

When it comes to Islam, the bogan is particularly at sea. When its ginormous TV spits out brief, vague and highly-coded news of events occurring in the Middle East, the bogan grips tighter to its barnacled flotsam.  This particular flotsam comes in the form of the Qu’ran, which the bogan knows on an intuitive level, without having read any of it, or found out what happens in it.

The bogan will tell people that the Qu’ran binds all Muslims to a thing called ‘Shania’s Law’, which compels them to spread chaos and oppression throughout the globe. In the bogan’s mind, Muslims of all stripes, each one a potential suicide bomber, have been fighting each other since before the time of Jesus. This, the bogan believes, has all been in order to attain maxtreme quantities of virgins in the afterlife. The bogan is highly suspicious of this, as the bogan wants its virgins right away, without having to work for them.

In recent times, the bogan has become increasingly concerned that the thrice-locked boganic wonderland of Australia is under threat from these Shania’s Law-following, virgin-motivated warriors. After all, Muslim terrorists were responsible for shutting down one of the best bars in Bali, and the bogan barely saved Cronulla from being the beachhead for an Islamic caliphate. But strangely, the threat of bombing has taken a back seat lately to the threat of garment-based attack. The bogan is continually haunted by the image of a woman wearing the burqa, because the bogan prefers its women to be largely clothes-free, or at least to show a bit of exposed ‘G’. Because the burqa deprives bogans of their fundamental right to leer at every woman equally, the bogan does not like the burqa. But when it tries to convince someone of this, the bogan may even give an uncharacteristic nod to the female liberation movement, before skipping infuriatingly to a carefully crafted theory detailing how Sheikh Alcopop is using Saudi oil dollars to launch a jihad on massive cans.


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751 responses

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. This bit is about you James: Being from the ‘real world’, the bogan understands things on a higher level than a mere academic…

17 05 2010
James

Indeed, it speaks to me in a way that few previous posts have. What I want to know is: where is this real world, and how do I experience it?

17 05 2010
Tombarina

You need a roooolllyyyy big TV, a meedja room and an account at Boating Camping Fishing….

18 05 2010
Johnny

Lols. “That’s not living, Josh. This is living!”

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi
A pleasure to see you on the job at dawns crack again.
You realy must have the maid well trained to bring you tea,toast and lime marmalade at some ungodly hour?

17 05 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

I’m sorry to say this but what is “a bit of exposed ‘G’. “?

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I believe it’s referring to a “g-string”. In your case, it’d be seen when you bent over to reveal your muffin top and tramp stamp.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

Ouch.

No need to be nasty Fi.

PS. I’m from Balwyn, don’t you know I have a gym membership (unlike you who I’m sure has en exercise wing)

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. And two trainers on staff.

17 05 2010
devil's advocate

You mean a pair of trainers on lay-by.

18 05 2010
Solskjaer

Bravo. Am I the only one who enjoys the Devil’s Avocado’s rhetoric?

And bravo to this entire post!

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. No, not the only one. I quite enjoy being the object of most of his attention.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

you have the membership ok but you did not admit to using it !

17 05 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

I hate the gym but I do use the membership. I’m not one of those freaks that gets off sweating (well, not at the gym anyway!) but I do force myself to go.

On the wall in the weights section is a huge print saying “A healthy mind starts with a fit body”. It amuses me greatly because as I’m lunging or crunching or whatever, I look around a see a lot of very fit bodies. A shame that most of them are as thick as pigshit.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

Hey Fiona,

Do you ever get the urge to shout “FIRST!”?

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I did once, but someone beat me to the punch. So I said to myself “I shan’t do that again”.

We also delete the comments of such idiots. TBL

17 05 2010
Josh

She needs to work on her urge to say “LOL.” at the beginning of everything she writes, its very boganesque. We wouldn’t want to see our fiona of toorak turn into one of THEM 😉

17 05 2010
vivisection

was it a donkey punch? Shouting first in that situation is looking for trouble.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I haven’t had the er, “pleasure” of that particular peccadillo. Knowing your beloved Fiona as you do, this can not come as a surprise to you.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

do you subscribe to “Punch” as well

17 05 2010
Peter

If the boge rethinks its definition of virgins by reverting to its preferred entrance (‘tradesman’) then the maxtreme quantity of available virgins instantly increases.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

or in your case decreases

19 05 2010
NSM

tee heee heee

17 05 2010
Tone

FOF. I’m surprised that ‘Sharia’ hasn’t start cropping up as a name for female bogan spawn, as it sounds real classy and that.

17 05 2010
miss dahl

Just wait – it’s only a consonant away …

17 05 2010
Bag O'Turnips

As much as “heroes” is only but one letter away from “herpes”.

17 05 2010
Ghengis of Coles Gungahlin

I’ve met a woman by the name of Sharia. She works on the checkouts at Coles Manuka (ACT). The only thing is, that she’s from India, or another of those south Asian countries. Unlike some of the older, fatter white women who also work there, she actually knows how to do her job, without becoming a mean bitch.

18 05 2010
Becster

Some of my best friends are darkies. They have wondderful teeth.

17 05 2010
Sheikyerbouti

Good article in The Punch today on the same topic…

“When it comes to intimate workings and in-depth knowledge of Muslim culture, let’s not beat around the bush, we have no frigging idea what we’re talking about.”

http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/a-mystery-wrapped-in-a-riddle-wrapped-in-a-burqa/

17 05 2010
Tubesteak

Was just reading that one, too.

I’m worried about a world where a few ‘advanced’ European nations determine to legislate against the wearing of an item of clothing.

In an age where the more enlightened among us prefer to teach understanding and tolerance this flies in the face of that.

I find that horrifying. Much more horrifying than bogans.

17 05 2010
miss dahl

There is quite a big difference between wearing a hijab and wearing a burqua and this difference should be recognised. Personally, I’m fine with the hijab – I too, have been known to wear a headscarf (for reasons of fashion and/or warmth, nonetheless). For further reading, cut & paste this link: http://www.slate.com/id/2253493

17 05 2010
vivisection

I’d be more interested in reading the opinions of a Muslim woman than an American man on this topic.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. You can’t. Muslim women are not allowed to hold opinions. *zing*

17 05 2010
James

What an ill-informed analysis of Muslim gender relations.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Do you not understand the cultural reference provided by the *zing*?

I would’ve thought with your lowly PhD in International Studies, you’d be well versed in vaudevillian barbs.

17 05 2010
James

Now now Fiona. I am an intellectual. I know very little of culture and the real world (apparently).

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. True. I forgive you this once, as I can see the wonderful use you are putting your education in International Studies to.

This topic was made for you I suspect.

17 05 2010
James

I am having a lot of fun with this one.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Indeed you are – and I for one am having fun watching.

It’s good to see you sparring with one of your inferiors, rather than continually going up against me.

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

i must have misread your response. I am just sooooo (can go on for years) annoyed at people thinking that they suddenly have this power to dictate our own religion to you. What would people say is muslims tried to do the same thing to our people.

21 10 2010
Mel. No deity be mine to call upon at my leisure

and yet you feel perfectly at liberty to speak on behalf of muslims “our own religion”

it’s yours now is it?

and you speak on behalf of “our people”

and yet those that suddenly have the power to dictate … often involve …. oh I don’t know … legislation and democracy … and use proper legislative process in those countries who ‘dictate’ …..

… funny because there are sects of islamic religion just as in others and differing cultural norms even within those … and yet as a self proclaimed “muslim woman’ you speak for ”ours” and ‘own’ – from this day forth i shall call you Relygus and you are my first born boguess aspirational child who is “not against christians but….”

16 08 2011
LOL

The problem is that 60% of the Quran deals with NON MUSLIMS, ie what to do with us; whether to kill, torture or frighten us, or simply make us pay jizya. This is not misinformation; it is factual. See this website, which is run by a phyics prof:
http://www.politicalislam.com/

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

Oh so now your an expert on our religion are you?

i will not give a rational answer to a person who is so misinformed and biased. what utter rubbish, ‘muslim woman are not allowed to hold opinions’
WELL ill give U my opinion, Your NOT worth it!

17 05 2010
vivisection

maybe the Australian Muslims Women’s Network: article on violence against women – relevant to our discussion yesterday Ms Dahl

http://www.mwnna.org.au/index.php?categoryid=11&p2_articleid=21

17 05 2010
SD

Vivisection, maybe you can read Nawal el Saadawi.

Personally I find it horrifying that anyone would defend the burqa (the fully covered one), even the women who wear it. It’s rooted in all kinds of patriarchal norms which is what is wrong with it, not the mere wearing of it. And its equation with Western dress norms like overtly sexual wear is just lazy analysis.

But of course the discussion is on sharia law – and invariably it turns to burqa. But IMO Sharia law is often regressive and its implicit defence on the grounds that bogans loathe it is more of a cultural war than anything to do with the law per se.

Apologies for being so serious. But you have to live in cultures with repressive norms to understand how harmful these can be (no matter how many ivory towers assure us otherwise).

17 05 2010
vivisection

I’m not defending the burqa. I’m suggesting, as is the spirit of the topic, that informed opinions are important. I questioned the validity of the unsubstantiated opinion contained in an American Man’s opinion piece on a blog. I offered an alternative opinion by Muslim women.

Yesterday, my point was that we shouldn’t make generalisations on the plight of all Islamic women, based on what is happening to a minority (of a global total) living under Sharia law.

Calling the comparison to western dress norms a lazy analysis, completely ignores the significance of the patriarchal norms which lead us to a society where women f#ck their legs up wearing high heels (so their calf muscles can look like they are screwing), where they go into debt to buy lipstick so their lips look like blushing vaginas and where they inject botulism into their faces so they can look young, keep their man and their jobs.

I’m amazes at how so many western women can be the first to leap up to ban the burqa, yet be apparently ignorant or blinded to the ridiculous, shocking situation they are often in themselves or at least surrounded by. Perhaps it is easier to critique another culture than our own?

We do live in a society with oppressive norms, we have just covered them up and normalised them so they don’t recognised anymore.

17 05 2010
vivisection

I assumed he was American because nearly all of the other articles and news on the site were American. D’oh

17 05 2010
SD

Vivisection, I am a woman and spent a good part of my life covered up because of the culture I was brought up in. Having been in both worlds, I can assure you that it’s not the same. I am no defender of overt sexualisation and find it problematic – but it’s the historical result of many things, including the feminist movement. Saying “we are also f…ked up only we don’t recognise it” does a disservice to many who have to fight genuine, debilitating oppression.

To be honest I am waiting for the day when we eulogise women who throw off the burqas – because in our culture that is a much harder and braver thing to do than wearing one. Also IMO, there are more vociferous opponents of the burqa in the Middle East and Asia than there are western women.

17 05 2010
SD

western women who oppose the burqa I mean.

17 05 2010
vivisection

SD, Do we need to score pain and suffering and assign sympathy according to who is worse off? I am of the opinion that we should clean up our own backyard before we comment on the neighbours.

That said, I also hope that any woman that is forced to subjugate herself to either a god or a man finds a way to liberate herself.

17 05 2010
vivisection

One look at Joan Rivers, Jocelyn Wildenstein also speaks volumes

17 05 2010
SD

No it’s not a question of a pain scale and certainly one’s backyard is more important. But the umbrella of patriarchy aside, there is little equivalence between the attitude to attire here and in cultures like mine, which is why my original point was it’s a lazy equation.

17 05 2010
SD

Joan Rivers is only open to mockery – not the same I think as making sure your attire is all in place so as to minimise any unwanted attention, including the physical, on the street.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Agreed I only added Joan to the equation for a cheap laugh!

17 05 2010
vivisection

I guess we disagree on that point. I think each culture applies different pressures, coming from different angles. Clearly you experienced your own journey which I don’t doubt has lead you to your well considered opinion.

In my family, my grandmother died of anorexia at age 42years (28kgs), 3 of my aunts, 1 sister and 2 cousins have also been through that particular hell.

I’m the first to acknowledge that I don’t understand the impact of the burqa on all Islamic women, but I have seen firsthand how the western attitude to beauty and attire in the west has impacted generations of women.

17 05 2010
SD

Sorry to hear that vivi. That’s a hard thing to go through.

I don’t at all mean that Western culture doesn’t pose its own problems to women. Like I said, I am opposed to overt sexualisation or obsession with body image. I think what frustrates me is the “let’s not criticise the burqa because we are equally bad” (not meaning you, I do note that you don’t defend it). In its absence, the burqa defenders and “women who wear the burqa by choice” get full play while the voices of people like nawal and so many countless other brave women who have fought these stupid norms get lost or forgotten.

I suppose I react too based on my experiences – even a TBL article which doesn’t endorse anything but only critiques prejudices, still feels like a vague apology for reactionary elements in other religions.

17 05 2010
Beccie

The most enduring tie that binds all nations and has always bound all nations is the oppression of women from Burquas to tramp stamps, it’s the same old song.

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Absolutely Beccie. Well said. 😀

17 05 2010
Beccie

well….that and fossil fuels…

18 05 2010
Whistling Nixie

“I was in a land where men force women to hide their facial features / And here in the west its just the same but theyre using make-up veils’
-Andy Partridge, XTC

18 05 2010
Whistling Nixie

Whoops, “it’s…they’re”

17 05 2010
James

I totally agree with this post
Love this article, it is hilarious.

But call me a bogan, I am totally against the wearing of burqa’s. They are backward and discriminatory towards women, and no religion that promotes or upholds equality (as Islam does) would demand such a backwards and repressive item of clothing be worn.

A key point to remember is that this strict type of dress is associated only with culture of certain middle eastern countries, not the entire Muslim religion itself. There is no religious grounds for it to be worn.

Although some may make judgments about the countries in Europe now in the midst of a backlash against Sharia Law Burqa etc., I believe we should study closely the outcomes of their immigration/cultural policies and events in these countries as precedent, and think carefully, especially before making decisions like allowing a parallel legal system for a minority group, as the sharia law is proposed to be –> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/03/08/2839749.htm

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

I have never seen so many people thinking that they can suddenly interpret our religion for us and tell us what we should and should not do in our our religion. Pathetic.
I wear the hijab and soon i plan to wear the niqab , what would you say to that!

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

and im certainly NOT middle eastern. The niqab was actually a practice among muslims for 1400 years, actually the females in the early day of islam would also wear it. Many muslim females from different backgrounds wear it and most of the females that wear niqab in this country are actually converts to islam who do it our of their own free will, if you really want to know what we think go to an islamic forum and ask people there

21 10 2010
Mel

…. so I should go to Hillsong to find the reality of god? and I should wear what they wear in order to in order to be closer to god?

I am not in any way disparaging you for your choices. I am just suggesting that YOUR choices is the appropriate paradigm.

17 05 2010
miss dahl

Thank you for the reference, vivi. I had the pleasure of meeting and working with the Muslims Women’s Network, inter alia, back when I worked in the public service.

21 10 2010
Mel

and yet in spite of that exact reference: please feel free to see the latest news;
Islamic court: OK to beat wife if no marks left
Man in United Arab Emirates was initially fined $136 for hitting spouse, daughter:
A man can beat his wife and kids as long as he leaves no physical marks, the United Arab Emirates’ highest court has found…..

contradicting the quote below from the site Viv so kindly and i imagine correctly wanted to point out;

A judge or magistrate hearing a family violence case should clearly understand and keep in mind that Islamic Law condemns violence no less than Australian law. Hence, when faced with a defendant saying or implying that it is his Islamic right to beat his wife, the judge or magistrate, should have no doubt that such a person does not know the Islamic Law adequately and that he is in fact acting contrary to the duties placed upon him by Islam. A judge or a magistrate should not hesitate to point this fact out to the perpetrator

17 05 2010
James Hunter

where is brimstone when we need him?

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Yeah, Where is our beloved Brimstone…working or something? 😉

18 05 2010
Rod Blaine

Wow. One of the 3 or 4 people on the blogosphere who doesn’t know that Christopher Hitchens is the Englishman From Central Casting.

Now: back to those stupid, uninformed bogans…

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

miss dahl, could you please tell me the difference between a burqua and a hijab? Is one just the head covering and the other full covering? Or is there more to it than that?

17 05 2010
17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Thanks Miss D. 😀

17 05 2010
miss dahl

Burqua is a head to toe covering with only a mesh or slit to allow vision. Hajib is a large scarf covering the hair. There is a remarkable difference between the two looks.

21 10 2011
Jesse

The number of people who want to ban the burqa is no greater than the number of people who want to ban skinny jeans or men wearing low-slung pants that expose their arses.

Australians can criticise the French for banning burqas in the classroom when Aussies finally take responsibility and accept the same number of Muslim migrants into their society as do the French. Until then, shut up.

17 05 2010
pb

surprisingly intelligent article for the punch.

17 05 2010
miss dahl

Just read that article. The writer is assuming that most people don’t know much about any religion, let alone Islam. Sounds like the bottom line is that people who aren’t well-informed should shut it, and those who are well-informed can have the floor. Works for me.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Well said. That’s why I have an opinion worth listening to on any subject.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

that kind of attitude flies in the face of the way our society works. look to politics for the true model

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Exactly, unless the uninformed have a genuine question. I know next to nothing about Islam, so I shall not be commenting, I’m not sure that I agree with being told what to wear. From either side, choice is a big thing for me. It is my understanding that the head dress is symbolic religiously? And while I have no love for any religion, particularly monotheist religions, if someone wants to wear it, good on them, as long as it is their choice, and not a decision made for the person.

17 05 2010
Valo

Love the part about the bogues knowledge coming from ‘the real world’. I’ve had bogues ‘aksk’ me why I went uni, and follow it up with things like ‘waste-a farrkin time maaaate. Oi got a farkin dug-ree from the farrkin skool’v loife. Ya should go get a farkin good job and get some cash instead’v goin ta skool for another farkin throi years.’ Also can the term high falutin’ be included in more posts? I really need to use those words more.

17 05 2010
chubbybloodfart

chubbybloodfart live from a campfire in the Manning Valley…

Mad Props to TBL for so delicate and eloquent a precis of this particular slice of the zeitgeist.
I try to be an equivocal cat. I do believe that to understand a thing one should be able to argue both for and agin it. without resorting to actually reading the koran (I did sort of try, but got confused between what was scripture, what was law, what was commentary and what was tradition), I do try to give heed to the reasoned “moderate” types who pop up to defend Islam whenever it hits the headlines. In short; I get the point of view but still feel scared of muslims. So pervasive is the Kraken’s reach.
I balance it thus: All religion is bullshit. Especially the monotheistic trio. It’s the twenty first century. The research is in. folk tales are out. as a society we should be taking every measure to stamp out and enlighten the “god” bunch before they destroy us utterly.
others have put it so much more eloquently, that I shan’t try my tiny keyboard skills any further.
Un Bogues unite. If you meet some tool with an omnipitent imaginary friend, help them grow up. just be careful they don’t try to kill you for it.

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Disclaimer – Christian (and thus potential bogan) here.

Chubby, I think that attemptinh to stamp out the “god bunch before they destroy us utterly” is really no different really from attempting to do the exactly opposite.

Neither feel right to me.

17 05 2010
Sten

Agreed… as an Atheist who grew up in a Christian family, I hold the view that I’m OK with with anyone else’s right to practice whatever religion they like, as long as they are OK with my right not to do so.

Oh, and Government MUST remain secular. If you can’t please ’em all, don’t try to please anyone.

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Completely agree with everything you say. Thank you.

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Oh the typos. Sorry, under the weather today.

17 05 2010
Alex Read

I take it that this is, amongst other things, a vielled dig at the recent calls by Cory Bernadi to ban the Burka on the basis of one robbery in Sydney and unconfirmed reports of Burka banditry in the UK? I did have a bit of a chuckle at Bernadi proudly trumpetting secularism when his website is so smothered in the rhetoric of ‘Christian values’ and when he would probably choke on his wheeties at the prospect of removing the prayer from Parliament or references to God from the constitution.
Bernadi really is the picture of the wealthy and powerful bogan, always ‘thinking from the gut’, to borrow a phrase from Stephen T. Colbert.

17 05 2010
pb

the other thing about the burqa robbery hysteria that seems to be lost on bernardi and bogans is that pretty much all armed robbers hide their appearance when they rob a place. the fact that a couple of people have used burqas is frankly irrelevant.

17 05 2010
Simon of South Yarra

So what do judaism and christianity offer the bogan, in the case of christianity an eternity of harp playing with beard guys in long frocks! islam offers virgins – how cool is that!

chubbybloodfart succincted it noicely, “all religion is bullshit. especially the monotheistic trio” It is the same imaginary friend, it is just different colours like if gary ablett went to the gold coast

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Did anyone else get the email that was recently distributed en masse by the bogans imploring all ‘aussies’ to boycott products sporting the Halal symbol, as it indicated that the Islamic church was receiving a percentage of the profits from the sale of such products, which they were using to fund future terrorist attacks on Australian soil?

My mum sent it to me and we had a maxXxtreme fight. 😦

17 05 2010
pb

i missed that particular joy. could you post the text of it so i can laugh?

17 05 2010
Shirley M

(Un)fortunately I erased it with a very forceful stab of the delete key.

17 05 2010
James

My bogan mother in law sends me heaps of this xenophobic rubbish. When I respond with well-reasoned arguments and facts, she retorts that I need to get a life, and experience the real world because apparently my many years of education are meaningless and do not entitle me to know stuff about anything.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. LOL!

17 05 2010
vivisection

I remember seeing on ACA when the bogues lost the plot because a McDonalds had a halal sticker on the door! One woman couldn’t bring herself to eat it because it wasn’t Christian.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

There’s a zillion reasons not to eat McDonalds. Who would have thought assumed religious affiliations would be one of them?

17 05 2010
vivisection

It was the McDonalds in my neighborhood, maybe I should go and see if blessing it in the name of All@h helps. Then again, you cant polish a turd, so i won’t.

17 05 2010
Kimba

They also went beserk over the halal sticker now being on vegemite and FB is awash with boycott vegemite groups. Who would of thought that such a harmless symbol could cause mass outrage.

17 05 2010
Tone

Vegemite also has a Kosher symbol on it now, too. Right next to the Halal symbol, as a matter of fact. Maybe Kraft should facilitate the next round of Middle East peace talks?

17 05 2010
vivisection

Not after the i.snack2000 debacle. No credibility.

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Where there’s a bogan, there’s a way Kimba…sad but true…
Bogan’s can be outraged at anything, just look at the HS and TT/ACA. Outrage Akimbo! 😉

17 05 2010
Natlee

Viv, you can’t polish a turd, but you can roll it in glitter.

17 05 2010
Alex Read

Ah the omnipresent and unitary Islamic church…
As soon as something like this is mentioned, you can pretty much ignore the mentioner. They have no clue what the hell they are talking about.

17 05 2010
Tombarina

Oooh, looky! Not just an email – an entire website devoted to keeping tabs on those bomb-lovin’ towelheaded darkies:

http://www.australianislamistmonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3287:boycott-vegemite&catid=180&Itemid=60

I feel SOOOOOO much safer, now that I know such great Australian intellects are on the job.

*glass, glass, glass*

17 05 2010
Shirley M

At the very least, the folk at islamist monitor are aware of what Halal actually means. The email I received implied that it was a symbol of terrorism. Why we should boycott Kraft for putting a little symbol on our much beloved Vegemite jars in an attempt to sell more, however, is beyond me.

17 05 2010
Sibyl Ince

If you’re going to boycott Kraft it should be for their use of palm oil. But that also applies to Nestle and Unilever.

17 05 2010
Ghengis of Coles Gungahlin

We should boycott Nestlé anyway. They’re evil

17 05 2010
Sibyl Ince

“that I know such great Australian intellects are on the job”

I think you just coined a new oxymoron.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Impossible. I’m Australian, and I’m a great intellect.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi ,
Thank God that there are at least two of us left ?

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Intellect must not mean what you think JH. *shudder*

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi,
anything that makes you shudder can not be all bad

17 05 2010
pb

welcome back, tombarina.

17 05 2010
common man

not surprised!!!

17 05 2010
James Hunter

cm, i think everything is a suprise to you

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. CM is back! How wonderful. I guess he got early parole.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

early parole;for what?
Maybe the guards could not find an interpreter for cmlish ?

17 05 2010
Sibyl Ince

What struck me as funny about that was that the writer was saying “Our Australian (this) and our Australian (that)…”, and two of the three examples cited are not Australian companies. Is Australia full of such idiots?

17 05 2010
Simon of South Yarra

Interestingly, my browser tab reads “#140 – Ill-Informed Anal…”, make of it what you will!

17 05 2010
vivisection

T’is a sign, as was the article from the “Punch”…..

17 05 2010
Tombarina

Am I alone in thinking the phrase “organised religion” to be utterly antithetical? That goes for the whole lot of ’em – it’s simply commercialised faith.

When it comes to “organised religion” of any ilk, I look to the late great George Carlin for inspiration: “I have as much authority as the pope; I just don’t have as many people who believe it.”

Mind you, George also said: “The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I’m just not close enough to get the job done.”

Kudos.

17 05 2010
Girl of Madness

All religion is evil and all believers are scary. Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus… What is tolerance when I can’t be taken seriously for my rational opnion but a person can quote scripture as a backup for any arguement 😦

17 05 2010
Girl of Madness

*opinion… sorry guys 🙂

17 05 2010
Beccie

I find Christian men in budgie smugglers very scary. Straya would be a better place if Tony wore a berka.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Ban the budgie smugglers. More offencive than a burqua! 🙂

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Um, nice sweeping generalisation you have there!

I think both you and the quoters of scripture are wrong here.

17 05 2010
Girl of Madness

Sweeping generalisation? There’s no truth in any organised religion. It’s a form of control. There’s no logic in the belief of God. Have I offended your Christian values my friend?

17 05 2010
Benjamin

I was chiefly referring to this: “All religion is evil and all believers are scary”

I believe in God. Please don’t tar me with the evil brush just because of that. You are entitled to your beliefs as I am entitled to mine. Please respect that.

I would simply prefer that you judge people (me included) on what they *do*, not what they think/believe. This goes for everyone; Christians (such as myself), Islamics, Jews, Hindus and atheists alike.

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Oh, and Bogans also.

18 05 2010
Goran

Wow, you must REALLY believe in god.

17 05 2010
chubbybloodfart

@ Miss Dahl.
thanks for the link to the Hitchins piece. Chris Hitchins is welcome at my fantasy dinner party along with Gough Whitlam, Carl Sagan and James Murphy.
I want to say I hate the whole concept of the burqa, but as an apologist for Libtards, I don’t think I should.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

I too hate the concept of the Burqa, however the logic in banning it because it infringes on a woman’s right to freedom and individuality is so very, very flawed, that it cannot be an argument at all.

17 05 2010
goran

Indeed. And the idea that there’s an instant and unbreakable link between wearing the burka and being oppressed – there are plenty of customs in western society that emerged from the context of a patriarchal system, can the meaning of these customs ever really change, or will they forever carry the taint of the bad old days? Just to be sure, let’s ban them all. The logic being that banning things that people do makes people more free from oppression.

17 05 2010
Paul

Perhaps we should also allow men to hold their wives in chains, Shirley.

The burqa is not only an insidious means of oppressing women but also a barrier to social participation. You can’t be a member of society and interact with others when covered up like a ninja. If these people want to come here because of our wealthy lifestyle, they should contribute to it, not shut themselves off.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Men holding their wives in chains would be breaking the law, Paul.

Many muslim women living in western societies CHOOSE to wear the burqa. These women have the right to choose what they wear just as any other woman does.

I think Viv mentioned somewhere that it would be great to hear the opinions of muslim women on this subject. I agree.

17 05 2010
Paul

Shirley,

You missed my sarcasm. You confirm my point precisely. The burqa is akin to shackling a woman and should be illegal.

The reason some choose to wear it is the influence of their culture, not their religion.

Listening to Muslim women on the subject would be a waste of time. Their perspectives are distorted by the overbearing influence of their culture. It’s something akin to the Stockholm Syndrome.

17 05 2010
James

Your opinions on the matter are distorted by the overbearing influence of your own culture. The fact that you dismiss the opinions of women on the basis of their culture makes very little sense, and is exactly the kind of boganic ill-informed analysis that we are denigrating here.

17 05 2010
Paul

What a load of rubbish, James.

Your assertion about “on the basis of their culture” is factually incorrect.

My comments are objective and proper.

Get yourself a proper classical education so that you may better understand the nuances of the English language.

17 05 2010
James

Then on what basis do you characterise the views of Muslim women as being, in your own words, a waste of time? Is it because of your bigotry? Or their religion? Or perhaps their colour?

It is your own lack of comprehension of your own words that led to me write what I did. And anyway, a classical education in finance? Which Tafe did you attend?

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

What like your education in Quantitative Wanking?

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

above is @ Paul, didn’t post where I thought it would.

s!lly p!inky.

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

why would it be a waste of time to listen our opinions when many countries around the world are making legislation to ban our religious symbols. And i have to say one thing today its banning the burka and tommorow it will be ban the scarf and why not, france, turkey, sri lanka, tunisia and many other countries are also expressing their ‘secular values’ arguing that the ‘hijab’ NOT going even near the burka issue, is a threat to their holy secularity.

21 10 2010
Mel

actually i completely disagree with not listening to womens opinions on anything …. however what I disagree with even more is that one women belonging to a secular environment (like that of the bogan woman who may be overheard suggesting “seriously man she deserved it did you see how she was dressed – she was asking for it” or that of the muslim echo of this sentiment) ….. if we are to discuss a topic in fairness we should perhaps ascribe ignorance and market driven or culturally derived oppression on both sides …

17 05 2010
pb

except, of course, paul, you are entirely missing the fact that there may well be some women who would not be having any social participation if not for the burqa. if there are women who cannot go out in public unless they wear the burqa, how exactly does banning it help them? banning it also gives it political power and creates a divide between the muslim community and the rest.

17 05 2010
Paul

PB, I’m missing nothing and you are way off the mark.

If some women don’t wish to have “any social participation if not for the burqa” then they shouldn’t be in Australia.

Why in Christ’s name could they not go out in public without the burqa? Can you give us even a remotely reasonable example?

I didn’t know that the lony Left read this blog!

17 05 2010
James

Because to some Muslim women, it is inappropriate for them to go out without it. That is as reasonable a reason as any other religious or cultural justification for anything.

Besides which, you do not have to be left wing to support liberty. I didn’t realise the right wing was so against people choosing how to dress. My own conservatism supports people’s right to choose how they dress, so long as they are not naked (which is the opposite of the burka). Nearly all the conservatives I know support similar liberties. Those that do not, tend to be the types that engage in ill-informed analysis of the Qur’an – or they are extremist christians who oppose Islam for no others reason than it is not christianity. Which leads me to think that you are a bogan or an extremist. Which also leads me to think that your opinion on these matters is essentially worthless, especially because it is premised on ignorance, misogyny, or xenophobia.

17 05 2010
Paul

Not in this country, it’s not a reasonable justification. If they don’t like the way we do things here, they should head back to Saudi.

Oh, but they want the benefits of our welfare state. I see…

Why do you have a problem with nudity but not the burqa? Because most people find nudity offensive and an impediment to social interaction. Same goes for the burqa.

As for your shrill little assertions calling me and others extremists, a bogan, ignorant… you silly little child. Grow up. You obviously think your uber-tolerance makes you so moral and such a virtuous human. You are a classic fool.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Saudi Arabia has an excellent welfare state of its own funded by the oil industries – covers free health care, unemployment, widows, orphans – as good as ours. Don’t let facts get in the way of a good pile of rubbish though

17 05 2010
James

By banning modes of dress, we are no better than the Saudis. If you like telling women what they can and can not wear, perhaps you should be the one to go to Saudi Arabia. In this country, it is not acceptable to strip people of their freedom like that. You are no conservative, indeed you bring shame to the name.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

and you a new age fool

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

i really appreciate your comments, i wish there were more people in the world that are in high places that think the same way you do.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Balwyn

Oh for fucks sake, the “loony left” “political correctness gone mad”.

If you can’t write without using pathetic cliches frankly fuck off!!

17 05 2010
marc

I think you meant to say “fuck off we’re full” a phrase he would be more than accustomed to.

17 05 2010
Kat

I don’t mind the women covering themselves, particularly if they want to, but I despise the insinuation that men cannot control themselves around unknown, uncovered women. I’m often surprised that men don’t have more of an issue with it than women do.

17 05 2010
Tombarina

Couldn’t agree more, Kat.
It’s hardly complimentary to suggest men are, uniformly, seething sacks of lust liable to explode into insatiable, unbridled sex-machines as the merest glimpse of a well-turned ankle.

If that were so, it’d make a magnificent case for a completely female-dominated society – blokes would be just too unreliable and volatile to fly planes, perform surgery, lead political parties, etc.

17 05 2010
SD

Reminds me of all our college projects devising all encompassing male attire so that they are never tempted 🙂

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

it dosent imply that its all part of modesty, only recently did the west discard this notion of dressing modestly. And in honest truth i dont see niqabi females as being oppressed i see those females who are slaves to fashion (most of which are dictated by men e.g Ralph Lauren, Dolce & Gabbana, Tom Ford, Valentino Garavani etc.) and models who model (sell their bodies) everything from cars to home products, their faces splashed on every billboard, their flawless (photo shopped) features decieving every self-concious women into believing that she’ll never look pretty enough! im so grateful for the modesty and protection i have. I dont have to go outside and worry about what i have to wear each day, wasting thousands buying designer labels i dont need and constantly worrying about my weight (dosent mean im fat 🙂 anyway i finish my thesis another time.. gotta go

19 05 2010
NSM

Bravo, well said, I have long thought this also, it is highly offensive – the implication that men are so without any control or morality.

The other implication that can be drawn – that any woman NOT wearing a Burqa is ergo unconcerned about her sexual safety and is in fact “asking for it” is equally scary and offensive.

Those who say it is a “woman’s choice” obviously have never been truly and totally oppressed by the males in their lives, even in non Islamic families some girls can be so incredibly controlled that they have little or no say in their lives, and no support system to help them overcome the repression.

There is a post above somewhere from an Islamic woman who has overcome her upbringing and escaped the repression – anyone wanting to know what a woman from the culture might think please find it and read it.

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Well put NSM, thank you

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

@ Chubby, my fantasy dinner, Chris Hitches, Sam Harris, Wil Anderson, Louis Theroux, Richard Dawkins, and of cause the grand-pappy maxxxtreme Atheist, Mr Charles Darwin. 😀 And all the cool kids from TBL + Plus the TBL writers.

😀

21 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. You need to read more P!nky, Charles Darwin was not an atheist. And Christopher Hitchens is a mere polemicist.

21 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I beg to differ Fi, Darwin was indeed an atheist, in his autobiography it is well documented that he struggled he has with religion and his work on the origins of the species.

I never said Hitches was an atheist, I just want to have dinner with him to pick his brain.

😀

21 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. If he was an atheist, what sort of (internal) struggle would he have had?

21 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

The fact that he had disproven the existence of God. He was going to join the church before he went to the Galopogas Islands, when he returned he continued with his Theory.

His wife, whom he adored, was a very good Christian and he feared that she would be upset/angry by his discovery.

It must have been very difficult for him to reconcile that everything he was bought up to believe was in fact wrong and keep in mind, this is the 1870’s and science was not what it is today.

21 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. He hadn’t (and hasn’t) disproved the existence of God. He merely provided a theory of speciation and some empirical data to support it.

I say “merely” for three reasons:

1) many of his contemporaries felt his theory to be so self-evident and easily understood as to not really be worthy of comment, let alone serious study
2) the real genius in evolutionary theory comes about in genetics – Darwin provided no explanation of the mechanism of change
3) as a contrast to disproving the existence of God, which would indeed be a worthy task.

21 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Fi,

I totally agree with you. A lot of people didn’t realise at the time, the significance of his theory. But he did.

I haven’t expressed myself as well as I could.

My comments were suppose to be more about Darwin’s personal struggle.

😕

17 05 2010
kolawole

just so u know guys,there is a GOD.dis is no joke.JESUS is lord

17 05 2010
common man

someone had to much cola today..god/lord any religon is just a crutch/fantasy believe because the follower’s lack self esteem an guidance..and need to justify their ill behaviour..evangelicasts are proof of that colawall

17 05 2010
James

Wow. I sincerely hope this is a joke.

17 05 2010
urbanreverie

We have a visitor from Nigeria? Do they even have any bogans there?

17 05 2010
Tombarina

Dunno. But it clearly has a healthy quotient of nutters.

17 05 2010
Simon of South Yarra

Just had a look at some of the references given, islamic rules as interpreted by some blokes mean that some blokes think they can treat women as second class citizens.
of course, the catholic pope thinks women are not suitable to conduct religious services and judaism separates men and women at the synagogue, so again the unholy monotheistic trio seem to be in agreement.

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Not to forget to mention the Pope’s stance on contraception…Bah! They are all as bad as each other. They are all the same anyway. Just different “head dudes” I am so relieved I’m an Atheist. Phew

18 05 2010
Steve

Aren’t most religions anti-contraception?

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

No not all. Catholics are prohibited by religious law, to not interrupt conception. I’m not sure about Islam and for Jew’s and protestants it cool too.

Reminds me of Monty Python’s “Meaning Of Life” Every sperm is sacred song.

17 05 2010
Paul

Wow. You TBL guys seem to be shifting your ideological base to that of the self-righteous left wing. I know a number of Labor Party academics, schoolteachers and “community workers” who would love the sneering tone of this article and the unequivocal attack on those who are affronted by the closed-minded nature of modern (particularly Wahabi) Islam or who advance very rational, inclusivity-oriented arguments as to why the burqa should be banned. And I have some Muslim friends who would sigh, shake their heads and say, “Please, not more Westerners who think that reflexively defending the idiots who have corrupted our religion is a way of showing their tolerance, enlightenment or advanced education”.

17 05 2010
FT

Paul, who said anything about defending those who have corrupted the Islamic faith??? The article is simply about bogues who automatically assume that the extremist viewpoints of some highly visible Muslims are representative of the entire religion, without having any background knowledge of what the religion was originally about, and how it has developed over time.

17 05 2010
Will S

Reality has a well-known left wing bias!

17 05 2010
James

Don’t lie Paul. You have no Muslim friends, you just say that so you don’t look stupid when dismissing the opinions of women based on the fact they are Muslims. Just so you know, it still looks stupid. It is not inclusive in any sense of the word to ban particular modes of dress. It is robbing some Muslim women of the freedom to dress as they please. And freedom and liberty are at the centre of conservative thought – at least they are for me.

17 05 2010
Paul

Wow, so why do I have friends called Ahmed and Medhat?

You silly little fool and liar.

17 05 2010
James

Sorry, I was incorrect. You have no friends at all.

17 05 2010
Paul

You poor sad little “man”.

17 05 2010
James

There there Paul. I am so comfortable in my manhood that I see no need to tell women what they should and shouldn’t wear. Maybe one day, you will reach this level too…

17 05 2010
James Hunter

there is obviously enough foolishness and mendacity to go round

17 05 2010
FT

My particular favourite line of argument spewing forth from the “ban the burqa” brigade is: “motorbike helmets are banned in banks as a safety precaution, so why shouldn’t burqas be banned too?”.
I’ve tried (unsuccessfully) on many occasions to point out the difference between the two – i.e. one is worn for safety reasons whilst riding at maxtreme speeds and therefore serves no purpose whilst the rider is not on the bike, whilst the other is worn in recognition of one’s religious beliefs, thus still serving a purpose whilst in the bank.
Unfortunately, this sort of logic tends to be unacceptable to the ever-fearful, security-conscious bogue who thinks that everyone wearing a burqa has some sort of explosive device secreted on their person. They certainly don’t like to be told to find a suitable point of comparison if you’re going to rely on a comparison to back up an argument…

17 05 2010
Kat

Isn’t it more that people who have no religious reason to wear a burqa will do so in order to rob banks? Not that legitimate burqa wearers are a problem? I mean, if I were a bank robber, the burqa would be looking pretty good.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Kat ,
Exactly, so stop all Burqa wearing and the bank bandits life just got that bit more difficult.

Other question is that I believe at least that most of the women who wear them do so because their fucked up men insist. not that they want to themselves.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

You have just illustrated clearly that you fall into the ill-informed analysis category, JH.

17 05 2010
Paul

No Shirley, you have shown that you fall into the category of the biased, self-righteous leftwinger who finds it easier to mouth feelgood platitudes and wear your moralistic stripes on your sleeve than to actually confront the grave problems that face this world. You’d gladly sell out your own culture to prove how “tolerant” you are.

17 05 2010
pb

paul, tbl’s alread covered you have a read of: https://thingsboganslike.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/97-anti-intellectualism/ fits you to a t.

17 05 2010
Paul

PB: silly thing to say to someone who has a Master’s degree in Quantitative Finance.

In any case, you again missed the mark. Anti intellectualism? No. I’m against the illogical quasi-intellectualism of the Left that ignores evidence in favour of ideology.

As usual, you plebs on the left have nothing to back your pathetic arguments other than your own self-proclaimed virtuosity.

17 05 2010
James

You make me ashamed to be a conservative Paul. Also, someone who studies finance is hardly an intellectual.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. It’s hardly a higher degree in the Classics.

17 05 2010
Paul

You’re not a proper conservative, Jimmy boy. Your’e the type that supports Turnbull. You wouldn’t recognise conservatives like Thatcher, Churchill or Reagan.

As for my degree, don’t worry son. Much more challenging and rewarding than yours I’m sure.

17 05 2010
James

Sigh. How pointless is this? Only a proper conservative would remove the freedom to dress as one sees fit.

It is you who is not a conservative Paul. There is a big difference between a conservative, and a bigot.

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Paul, you’re a mathematician, big deal. What did you say you do? Trader? So really your just a wanker mathematician.

17 05 2010
Keeping Kosher Klansman

Dammit man, can I have your latest stock tip? Are you a small-caps man or more of an institutional investor? Is the Henry tax gonna cripple our economy? Just how sustainable is Chinese economic growth? Should I get out of the miners altogether and deleverage my *tee hee* portfolio? Fockin’, my research is getting me 40% of nowhere. Got so many damn tabs open that this one reads “#140 – Ill-Informed Anal…”.

17 05 2010
toony

Oh no…KKK is on the pish again…

17 05 2010
toony

Quantitative Finance? Oh…fancy accountant..:(
So, what qualifies you, Paul, as an intellectual?

Or is it more that Fancy Accountants just have this shit nailed?

17 05 2010
vivisection

I wonder if he got his degree at one of the “stone age bigot” ‘learning centres – the ones the west adopted and decided to call Universities?

22 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

probably has done a short course in business maffs at CAE, BAHAHAHAHAHA

17 05 2010
Paul

toony, you have no idea. all i can say is you wouldn’t survive a day in my field! not that you’d ever qualify to get in I’m sure 🙂

17 05 2010
toony

Viv, I concur with your assessment, esp in light of Pauls recent comment!

Paul 17:34 “..all i can say is you wouldn’t survive a day in my field!”

What, are you like some accountant from The Hurt Locker?
Do you keep a basket of invoices and receipts (the real tough ones that took hours to decipher) under your bed, as trophies?

Do you go in ‘suited up’ each day, or do you send in the Bot?

I’m guessing a ride home in a HumVee? :0

You are maXXX to the power of….?

17 05 2010
Paul

no toony, I’m a trader, not an accountant – though good luck to those who are.

your mum thinks I’m the maxxx 🙂

17 05 2010
James

Evidently, Paul lives in the real world, and has little time for the informed opinions of academics.

18 05 2010
Goran

You sound like you’d be pretty shit to work with.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

ever hear the fable about the pot and the kettle?

18 05 2010
pb

as others have pointed out, having a degree in finance – or really of any sort – doesn’t preclude you from being anti intellectual. and your resorting to mocking academics and teachers makes your anti intellectualism so clear it might as well have a neon sign above it.
oh, and if you want to play the education game, i have a bachelors and masters degree and am currently doing a phd.

21 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

pb (11:41:00) : i have a bachelors and masters degree and am currently doing a phd.

May I ask what in pb?

17 05 2010
Shirley M

I value the right we have in our culture to be able to wear whatever we want to wear. How is this selling it out?

17 05 2010
vivisection

except Crocs. Nobody should wear Crocs. A line must be drawn.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Right you are. Especially with socks. Anyone who wears crocs with socks should be locked up.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. What manner of frightful things are “crocs”?

17 05 2010
vivisection

Best you don’t know Fiona. I also believe wearing crocs and socks might break the not wearing mixed fabrics rule in the bible. So even Jes@s is on our side.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I have a lot of crocodile leather shoes, bags and belts of course, but I hardly go around referring to them as “crocs”!

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Can crocs be classified as a fabric?

17 05 2010
vivisection

Brace yourself Fiona, Crocs are a plastic footwear for leisure activities – light gardening, lesbianism, that kind of thing.

The “poor dykes birkenstock” comes in radiant greens, reds, oranges and an array of patterns.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Shirley, we wont have the truth get in the way of our bible approved dislike of crocs. Just as the Jews have “White Steak” and the Christians still eat shellfish, crocs are now “fabric”.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Plastic. Footwear!?!?! Good Lord. I didn’t know footwear came in anything other than leather.

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

Well said Paul.

Wrong Shirley.

You’d rather hide behind ‘tolerance’ than confront some of these bastard practices. Female circumcism ok with you under the guise of religious or cultural tolerance? How about stoning of 14 year old girls for ‘adultery’, read, holding a boys hand.

Do you defend these sort of abhorrent behaviours or are you against them? Well?

Sitting on the fence leads to one thing and one thing only, splinters in your arse.

Let me stand on the side of the fence that says, burqa’s, female circumcisms, baptisms, confirmations, stonings, hell and heaven myths are garbage and bullshit.

FOF!

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

Well said Paul.

Wrong Shirley.

You’d rather hide behind ‘tolerance’ than confront some of these bastard practices. Female circumcism ok with you under the guise of religious or cultural tolerance? How about stoning of 14 year old girls for ‘audultery’, read, holding a boys hand.

Do you defend these sort of abhorrent behaviours or are you against them? Sitting on the fence leads to one thing and one thing only, splinters in your arse.

Let me stand on the side of the fence that says, burqa’s, female circumcism, baptism, confirmation, stonings, hell and heaven myths are garbage and bullshit.

FOF!

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Your likening of female circumcision to an article of clothing Muz, is just the kind of retarded logic I would expect from you.

17 05 2010
James

That is a bad comparison Muz. As far as I am aware, we do not stone people or allow female circumcision in Australia. We do allow people to wear what they like. How are practices that do not exist here relevant to a discussion about how people dress? “Retarded” does not quite cover it Shirley.

True conservatives, Muz and Paul, respect peoples’ liberty to practice any religion or none. As well as their right to act as they please, within the law of course. Obviously abhorrent and dangerous practices are not legal in Australia. Dressing in line with your cultural and religious values is legal, and the fact that you would remove that also removes any claim you have to being a true conservative. You are nothing more than a self-righteous bigot.

17 05 2010
Sten

If you think Crocs are ridiculous, Viv (yeah, they are, I won’t disagree there), how about this emergent trend which sees young women wearing gumboots, hail, rain or shine?

17 05 2010
vivisection

I know. I’m pretending that this gumboot business is a temporary blight on the senses, like Kangaroo Shoes in the 70’s.

17 05 2010
Sten

Whatever they are… I didn’t even arrive in this country until 1985.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Kangaroo Shoes – boots with big kick arse springs on them so you can hop down the street, fall over, break your neck etc

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

No, I am having a go at your logic. You say that the burqa is ok because it’s cultural and religious and we should show tolerance and accept it. Female circumcision meets the above criteria hands down.

So are you for it or against it?

Try not to insult me with your next post and avoiding the question. Just try and answer yes or no.

I’ll make it easy for you, you should say you’re against it. But there’s the rub, you can’t, lest you brand yourself a hypocrite.

Which you will be! But that’s OK, I knew that anyway.

But better to be a hypocrite and stand against something that is truly abhorrent than hide behind some airy fairy words.

FOF!

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Actually I never said that the burqa is ok because it is cultural and religious. I said that people should be able to wear whatever they want to wear.

Are you asking me if I am for or against the burqa, or for or against the burqa being banned?

I don’t like the burqa. In that, I wouldn’t want to wear one. Just because I don’t like it doesn’t mean that I should want it banned.

17 05 2010
toony

It will be. Viv, here’s a quote from my recent book;
“The trend started, IMO, with the various music festivals that were rained out. People brought gumboots more outta irony.
Suddenly the bogue festival-wrecker realised it was coooool to wear something that only rural workers/concretors wore prior to that, plus the Gallery page on their fave festivals site showed people doing it in ’93 (plus Chucks!!)
Rubber manufacturers in China and India picked up on the vibe and introduced a limited range of Fancy Gumboots that appealed to the boguette need for individjoolism.”

History of Gumboots in Popular Culture.
by Toony.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Toony, you be a genius – a bestseller is on its way. I could maybe fill a pamphlet on the Kangaroo Shoe, however most people who actually wore them suffered head injuries and may not recall.

17 05 2010
Paul

because stone-age Islamic values run entirely counter to everything that made the West great, from the Enlightenment and Renaissance onwards.

I see today a leading cleric in Afghanistan who was promoting peace has been assassinated along with his family.

We are in a clash of civilisations and the likes of you who insist we roll over and give into these stone-aged bigots will result in Australia becoming like Britain.

17 05 2010
James

“stone-aged bigots”. I imagine that in the bogan mind, there is no internal inconsistency there.

17 05 2010
vivisection

The same stone age bigots that contributed to the finest architecture, philosophy, poetry, mathematics and literature that was produced while the west was living in the dark ages and that continues to influence most of modern society? Now you show your ignorance Paul.

17 05 2010
Paul

you silly pair.

would you like to quote to me what Wahabi Islam offered the world?

That is what is at issue here, and again you lot have got it wrong.

You think you are so enlightened, yet you are so blinkered!

17 05 2010
vivisection

Would you like Christianity to be judged on the actions of the Branch Davidians? Stop selectively choosing extremist sects and judging entire religions / cultures on their actions alone.

17 05 2010
James

I don’t say Wahabism has offered anything. But what have authoritarian proscriptions on modes of dress offered the world?

17 05 2010
FT

Kat, I understand that, but you can’t possibly argue that because there is a chance that some bank robbers will don a burqa in order to hide their faces, no Islamic woman legitimately wearing a burqa is allowed in a bank. For one, it’s not backed up by empirical evidence, but, more importantly, it is grossly discriminatory.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Close the banks! They are dangerous and encourage terrorism 🙂

17 05 2010
pb

ban black permanent markers! a couple of idiots used them to draw disguises on themselves before committing a robbery!: http://www.realinsurance.com.au/About-Real-Insurance/Media-Room/Insurance-Blog/Welcome/February-2010/Strange-but-true-robbery-stories.aspx

17 05 2010
vivisection

gold.

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

PB – Best comment all day. 😀

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I second that! HAHAHAHA Well done as always Viv,

17 05 2010
James Hunter

finally a realy sensible comment !!!

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

I note that you ignored my question again but we’ll take it as read that you’re a hypocrite.

People should be allowed to wear whatever they want to wear based on what premise? Tolerance? The same tolerance that allows barbaric practices to go unchecked all in the name of personal/religious/cultural choice/freedoms?

So back to female circumcision, for or against?

Come on now, you know you have to say you’re against it.

It’s really simple, FOR or AGAINST!!

Have to pick the kids up from school now but look forward to your witty/well thought out obfuscation of the argument.

FOF!

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Of course I am against female circumcision, which is already illegal here, and rightly so. I’m against male circumcision, for that matter.

Your leap from the burqa to female circumcision reeks of misinformed moral outrage.

I can wear whatever I want to wear. Thus everyone should be able to wear whatever they want to wear. This is not a country where there is no distinction between religious law and judicial law. I hope we keep it that way.

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Well said Shirley.

Muz, I fail to see how Shirley has been even slightly inconsistent in her arguments here… I’m not sure whose comments you’ve been reading. Got a quote to illustrate?

17 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Bang on Benj!

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

Shirley M.

Firstly good to see your little gang is still active.

Secondly good for you to have the balls to be against, what is, a barbaric, medieval practice.

However you are being inconsistent.

If I want to walk naked down Pitt Street at 9am on any given morning of the week I will be arrested. Should I not be able to wear what I want?

Isn’t that free choice?

Oh, but hang on, isn’t that against common decency to be naked in public?

You simply cannot wear whatever you want, whenever you want. That’s the fact of the matter. You might say you should be able to wear what you want but it’s simply not the case.

And who decides that? The judiciary that’s who. And the judiciary reflects, rightly or wrongly, the social mores and norms of the day.

And therein lies the juxtaposition in a nutshell.

The point is that although you don’t agree with the burqa you tolerate it under the guise of ‘enlightenment’.

However when I mention female circumcision you hide behind the fact that it’s illegal irregardless of the fact that it might be culturally relevant to some of our Islamic friends and therefore by your distorted logic ‘culturally significant’ and ipso facto ‘tolerable’.

Wrong and wrong!

Should a push come to legalise female circumcision where would you stand? On the ‘tolerance/freedom’ side or against it? If you are so tolerant then you will need to perform some nifty mental gymnastics to sort out your conundrum.

And lastly for your benefit Benjamin the inconsistency is that although burqa wearing is offensive (and it is not least for the subjugation of the women involved) you should somehow tolerate their freedom to choose. (most likely crusty old men.) However should those very same people or others for that matter choose to indulge in a bit of genital mutilation, based on the same reasoning above, religiun, culture etc then it shouldn’t be tolerated.

Now read this because it’s important! I actually don’t think they should ban women from wearing the burqa because where will it all end. (Nuns and priests are more or less in the same garb and no one seems to bat an eyelid at them.)

I was simply more interested in teasing out the flawed arguments that come up time and time again when it comes to the issue of burqa wearing.

FOF!

17 05 2010
James

“Irregardless”. Love it.

In any case, Muz, wearing a burka in the streets in currently not illegal. We are not talking about legalising some abhorrent practice like female circumcision. What you are talking about is banning a mode of dress, one that some few people consider the moral way to dress. I really don’t see the harm in leaving the law the way it is.

To put it in terms you might understand, how would you like it if something you consider moral and correct was made illegal, despite the fact that it was hurting no one else?

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

Again, I’m not for banning burqas.

But James lots of things that were once illegal are now legal and vice versa.

The crux of the argument is TOLERANCE. The burqa should be tolerated even if we don’t agree with it.

Should push come to shove and and in the name of ‘religious TOLERANCE’ female circumcision is put up to be legalised in Australia where will you/we stand?

After all male circumcision is legal. It’d be a keen lawyer that’d try and argue one is OK but not the other.

You could say health reasons for the male but what if some religious nutcase put up an argument and a study to show that female circumcisions where in some way conducive to good health. I mean the inconsistencies make your head spin.

My point is that in theory tolerance is a good thing. Tolerance carte blanche is bad.

FOF!

17 05 2010
James

So we agree then?

I’ll all for tolerance, as long as it is within the law. Female circumcision is not. Not even Steve Fielding would accept the argument that it is okay. That is why there is no logical flaw in supporting peoples’ freedom to dress as much as they like, and opposing female circumcision. One does no harm at all, the other a lot. Equating the two is fallacious, as one can indeed be for freedom, and against genital mutilation, on the grounds that people should be free from genital mutilation. I get the feeling you are being a touch disingenuous saying that if I am for freedom, I should stand for female circumcision.

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

So if burqa wearing was made illegal you’d tolerate that?

You say not even Steven Fielding would accept that argument. But who knew 3 years ago that that peanut thinks the world is actually 6000 years old. And he does. How many people do you think would have voted for him had they known that.

And to think him and Xenaphon (sp?) hold the balance of power in the senate.

Who knows what dirty little deals could be cut in a future Australia. What if some nut got in and decided to do a cute little deal where they dressed up female circumcision as some sort of preventative health measure? And then what? Tolerate it because it’s legal?

It’s not a long bow to draw.

FOF!

17 05 2010
James

I guess not, but it also bears little relation to the discussion about the burka. The harm done by female circumcision is pretty bad, whereas when a woman chooses to wear a burka, there is no harm.

And I would like to imagine, that in a western liberal democracy, there would have to be a pretty compelling reason to ban its being worn. In the absence of that, it should not be made illegal to begin with.

I think it is Xenophon, but I am also not sure.

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

James one other thing and I’ll quote you here.

“To put it in terms you might understand, how would you like it if something you consider moral and correct was made illegal, despite the fact that it was hurting no one else?”

There are sick bastards in the world that think grooming and buggering 12 year old boys is morally correct and fine or owning 25 semi-automatic rifles and having an underground bunker full of nerve gas is OK too.

You and I don’t.

You and I and the peanuts on the board here make up and decide by a convoluted consensus, over time, what are the moral and social norms are that we live by in our day to day society.

These norms change over time too so that something that was considered perfectly fine, such as slavery, 200 years ago is consigned, rightly, to the dustbin of history. (And slavery was considered absolutely and perfectly normal for hundreds of years.)

The understandable (though misguided) belief that we should be free to choose and do whatever we want is unfortunately, at the nth degree, a recipe for disaster and anarchy.

FOF!

17 05 2010
James

Yes, but no one is arguing that case. I am, specifically, arguing that we should not ban a mode of dress, just because one was used in an armed robbery, or because some people don’t like looking at it.

The others things you mention are clearly wrong, according to modern enlightenment thought. If a woman chooses to wear a burka, this hurts no one, unlike all the things you list.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. “Irregardless”. Too, too priceless. I’m surprised I didn’t find a “should of” or “could of” in there too.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

I suggest you cease making assumptions about the nature of my beliefs. I don’t ‘tolerate the burqa under the guise of enlightenment’. It just doesn’t bother me. It’s that simple. You are so intent on finding a flaw in my argument that you are creating my opinions to suit your own counter argument.

Your attempt at creating a binary opposite with burqa/nudity is both juvenile and futile, and I will expend no time indulging it.

Female circumcision is cruel, painful, dangerous, horrifying etc. etc. I will always be opposed to it. It is a ridiculous comparison to the burqa. It’s a piece of clothing for f*ck’s sake! A piece of clothing that some women wear for cultural and religious reasons. Like skullcaps, crucifixes, turbans, saris, nuns habits, tribal tattoos and so on. The only difference between the burqa and these is that it is more confronting, and presumably enforced on women by men. This presumption in itself is harmful to the women in question.

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

Do you ever reread your posts Shirley M?

You are very rude you know. Every time you disagree with a poster, and not just me, you slag them off. Yes you make an argument but you can’t help but show your nasty, nasty side can you?

If anyone is small and petty on this board it is you.

Anyway…..

As I have said before and I will do so again you refuse to refute the contradictions in your arguments. You just bag me out and say the nudity argument is juvenile but it exposes the contradiction in black and white that you are, indeed, not free to wear whatever you want.

“Female circumcision is cruel, painful, dangerous, horrifying etc. ” Correct but the same arguments for woman wearing the burqa are put forward for female circumcision such as modesty, cleanliness and the saving of one’s body for their husband.

The two issues are intertwined. One is OK to you the other is not. There are plenty of cultures around the world where they think both are not only OK but you are more or less an unclean, loose woman without both being imposed.

The contradiction for women on this subject is delicious because on the one hand they believe on the right to choose but on the other they know that the burqa is a male imposed item which desexes their female brethren. (What’s the collective noun for sisters? Sisterhood?)

FOF!

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF

James post.

“Yes, but no one is arguing that case. I am, specifically, arguing that we should not ban a mode of dress, just because one was used in an armed robbery, or because some people don’t like looking at it.

The others things you mention are clearly wrong, according to modern enlightenment thought. If a woman chooses to wear a burka, this hurts no one, unlike all the things you list.”

Except of course the women subjected to it. How much choice do you really think some of these poor women have in this matter. I mean real choice. They grow up in a patriarchal culture, their sisters, mother, aunts, friends, cousins all wear one. If they choose not to wear one that are subject to inuendo, sideways glances, comments and worse not to mention handicapping their future lives and careers. What choice do they really have?

It’s them that I feel sorry for the most.

I bet you a penny to a pound there were plenty of young women and perhaps old ones too that were glad the French government banned the burqa. They probably threw the bastard on the floor and said ‘thank god for that, at least now I have an excuse’.

FOF!

17 05 2010
James

And those who chose to wear it as a sign of their devotion to their god or their culture and tradition were robbed of that. In any case, I thought the French have banned the wearing of overt symbols of religion in public buildings. Belgium has banned the burka, despite the fact that only 13 women in the whole country identified as wearing one.

Misogyny and domestic violence are a separate problem from the wearing of the burka. Simply banning the burka will have no effect on those kinds of men, any more than banning domestic violence has stopped it here.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

I didn’t slag you off. I assume you are referring to my classification of your nudity argument as juvenile. Your argument. Not you. Again, you are creating ‘me’ to serve yourself.

You are going to argue with me no matter what I say. You are going to keep raising the same illogical points. You are doing this for arguments sake, presumably because you don’t like me. Well, I’m cool with that Muz. I’ve made my point and I have nothing more to add.

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

And Shirls you keep ignoring them but anyway just a little recap of some selected snippets of your ‘eloquent’ arguments before you head off.

‘reeks of misinformed moral outrage.’

‘Your attempt at creating a binary opposite with burqa/nudity is both juvenile and futile’

‘fall into the ill-informed analysis category’

‘I hope you have achieved a massive erection just thinking about how very awesome you are. Stroke away, champion.’

‘I’d rather be a vulgar woman than a conceited c*nt.’

‘Make sure you have some lubricants handy while engaging in your self-love.’

Very noice Shirls! What’s not to like!

FOF!

18 05 2010
Shirley M

How sweet of you to collate little snippets of my handiwork, Muz.

And all this ‘irregardless’ (sic) of the fact the you preface all your posts with the oh so witty acronym for ‘F*ck off Fiona’.

Have a good day today!

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Shirley, you can’t win, don’t bother. He wont listen and will read what he wants. So forget it. It’s like debating with a maxtreme christian about evolution, you can’t win because the debate isn’t based on reason.

You rock Shirl.

18 05 2010
Shirley M

In this particular instance I am of the opinion that I’d won the argument before I’d even entered it. :-p

17 05 2010
James

Okay then Muz. You are for banning modes of dress based on culture, and have well established your contempt for Western liberal democratic notions of liberty. We get it.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Poor Muzz. Hoist by his own petard. I expect the classic “what do youse know, youse don’t live in the real world” defence shortly.

17 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Muz is unlikely to know what a petard is.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Of course. With my higher degree in the Classics, I assume all my allusions and references are well known to all.

20 05 2010
big_baggies

your references ??

I have yet to see you make a reference yet that indicates your education claims.Saying in EVERY thread you have a “higher degree in the classics” means nothing when you never show any insight into the subjects.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

doesnt get the point !!

17 05 2010
James Hunter

it also serves as a disguise in a bank. get real

17 05 2010
James

the Koran does not explicitly demand the covering of a woman’s entire body. There is no religious basis for a burqa, only religion twisted by culture. No woman can claim to have to wear it for religious reasons.

17 05 2010
Paul

So, FT, where in the Koran are women commanded to wear the burqa?

It’s a cultural garment, NOT a religious one.

17 05 2010
FT

Paul, I’m not saying that the Qu’ran itself commands the wearing of the burqa. True, I did say that it is of religious significance to those who wear it, which it still can be despite the lack of Qu’ranic commandment on the issue. All religions are subject to perversion over time. Those schools of the Islamic faith which require the wearing of the burqa do so due to certain (albeit extreme) interpretations of the Qu’ran and the Sunnah. Just because the texts make no specific reference to the burqa doesn’t mean that the burqa is not of religious significance to those particular schools of Islam.

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

Exactly Paul, the hijab was only invented in the 70’s.

Many countries that have muslims such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Singapore din’t subscribe to wearing them 30 or even 10 years ago. Unfortunately the louder, more extreme islamic zealots are making their mark and more and more woman in these countries are now wearing them. It’s disappointing.

FOF!

17 05 2010
vivisection

The 70’s hey?

http://alaiwah.wordpress.com/islam-the-origin-of-hijab/

Not sure whether this source is any better than yours Muzz, but it is an interesting article.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. “The tradition of veiling and seclusion (known together as hijab) was introduced into Arabia long before Muhammad…”

Perhaps Muzz thinks Muhammad was around in the 80’s? Dancing to Culture Club no doubt.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Perhaps the Hajib came about to accessorise with Kangaroo Shoes.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. During the Prophet’s wanderings through the Simpson Desert…

17 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

Perhaps it would have been better to say that the wearing of the hijab has only recently become a implied (required) standard of dress in formerly moderate countries like the 3 posted above.

Whilst veiling has been around for centuries, the hijab itself is a modern invention.

Additionally nowhere in the Koran (sp) does it say there is a need to wear this garbage. You only need to travel to Turkey or Malaysia (amongst others) to see that Islamic interpretation depends on where you are.

But anyway for balance try this: http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/writings/islamic/scarf_revel.htm

FOF!

17 05 2010
vivisection

Muzz, this article concludes that the assertion of the hijab starting in the 70’s is false.

17 05 2010
Muz

THIS IS NOT ISLAM

THIS IS NOT ISLAM

By AMIR TAHERI

August 15, 2003 — FRANCE’S Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin has just appointed a commit- tee to draft a law to ban the Islamist hijab (headgear) in state-owned establishments, including schools and hospitals. The decision has drawn fire from the French “church” of Islam, an organization created by Raffarin’s government last spring. Germany is facing its hijab problem, with a number of Islamist organizations suing federal and state authorities for “religious discrimination” because of bans imposed on the controversial headgear.

In the United States, several Muslim women are suing airport-security firms for having violated their First Amendment rights by asking them to take off their hijab during routine searches of passengers.

All these and other cases are based on the claim that the controversial headgear is an essential part of the Muslim faith and that attempts at banning it constitute an attack on Islam.

That claim is totally false. The headgear in question has nothing to do with Islam as a religion. It is not sanctioned anywhere in the Koran, the fundamental text of Islam, or the hadith (traditions) attributed to the Prophet.

This headgear was invented in the early 1970s by Mussa Sadr, an Iranian mullah who had won the leadership of the Lebanese Shi’ite community.

In an interview in 1975 in Beirut, Sadr told this writer that the hijab he had invented was inspired by the headgear of Lebanese Catholic nuns, itself inspired by that of Christian women in classical Western paintings. (A casual visit to the Metropolitan Museum in New York, or the Louvres in Paris, would reveal the original of the neo-Islamist hijab in numerous paintings depicting Virgin Mary and other female figures from the Old and New Testament.)

Sadr’s idea was that, by wearing the headgear, Shi’ite women would be clearly marked out, and thus spared sexual harassment, and rape, by Yasser Arafat’s Palestinian gunmen who at the time controlled southern Lebanon.

Sadr’s neo-hijab made its first appearance in Iran in 1977 as a symbol of Islamist-Marxist opposition to the Shah’s regime. When the mullahs seized power in Tehran in 1979, the number of women wearing the hijab exploded into tens of thousands.

In 1981, Abol-Hassan Bani-Sadr, the first president of the Islamic Republic, announced that “scientific research had shown that women’s hair emitted rays that drove men insane.” To protect the public, the new Islamist regime passed a law in 1982 making the hijab mandatory for females aged above six, regardless of religious faith. Violating the hijab code was made punishable by 100 lashes of the cane and six months imprisonment.

By the mid 1980s, a form of hijab never seen in Islam before the 1970s had become standard gear for millions of women all over the world, including Europe and America.

Some younger Muslim women, especially Western converts, were duped into believing that the neo-hijab was an essential part of the faith. (Katherine Bullock, a Canadian, so loved the idea of covering her hair that she converted to Islam while studying the hijab.)

The garb is designed to promote gender apartheid. It covers the woman’s ears so that she does not hear things properly. Styled like a hood, it prevents the woman from having full vision of her surroundings. It also underlines the concept of woman as object, all wrapped up and marked out.

Muslim women, like women in all societies, had covered their head with a variety of gears over the centuries. These had such names as lachak, chador, rusari, rubandeh, chaqchur, maqne’a and picheh, among others.

All had tribal, ethnic and generally folkloric origins and were never associated with religion. (In Senegal, Muslim women wear a colorful headgear against the sun, while working in the fields, but go topless.)

Muslim women could easily check the fraudulent nature of the neo-Islamist hijab by leafing through their family albums. They will not find the picture of a single female ancestor of theirs who wore the cursed headgear now marketed as an absolute “must” of Islam.

This fake Islamic hijab is nothing but a political prop, a weapon of visual terrorism. It is the symbol of a totalitarian ideology inspired more by Nazism and Communism than by Islam. It is as symbolic of Islam as the Mao uniform was of Chinese civilization.

It is used as a means of exerting pressure on Muslim women who do not wear it because they do not share the sick ideology behind it. It is a sign of support for extremists who wish to impose their creed, first on Muslims, and then on the world through psychological pressure, violence, terror, and, ultimately, war.

The tragedy is that many of those who wear it are not aware of its implications. They do so because they have been brainwashed into believing that a woman cannot be a “good Muslim” without covering her head with the Sadr-designed hijab.

Even today, less than 1 percent of Muslim women wear the hijab that has bewitched some Western liberals as a symbol of multicultural diversity. The hijab debate in Europe and the United States comes at a time when the controversial headgear is seriously questioned in Iran, the only country to impose it by law.

Last year, the Islamist regime authorized a number of girl colleges in Tehran to allow students to discard the hijab while inside school buildings. The experiment was launched after a government study identified the hijab as the cause of “widespread depression and falling academic standards” and even suicide among teenage girls.

The Ministry of Education in Tehran has just announced that the experiment will be extended to other girls schools next month when the new academic year begins. Schools where the hijab was discarded have shown “real improvements” in academic standards reflected in a 30 percent rise in the number of students obtaining the highest grades.

Meanwhile, several woman members of the Iranian Islamic Majlis (parliament) are preparing a draft to raise the legal age for wearing the hijab from six to 12, thus sparing millions of children the trauma of having their heads covered.

Another sign that the Islamic Republic may be softening its position on hijab is a recent decision to allow the employees of state-owned companies outside Iran to discard the hijab. (The new rule has enabled hundreds of women, working for Iran-owned companies in Paris, London, and other European capitals, for example, to go to work without the cursed hijab.)

The delicious irony of militant Islamists asking “Zionist-Crusader” courts in France, Germany and the United States to decide what is “Islamic” and what is not will not be missed. The judges and the juries who will be asked to decide the cases should know that they are dealing not with Islam, which is a religious faith, but with Islamism, which is a political doctrine.

The hijab-wearing militants have a right to promote their political ideology. But they have no right to speak in the name of Islam.

17 05 2010
James

Okay, hijabs are not sanctioned in the Qur’an. I think most of us knew that already. The question I have been asking still stands: why ban burkas? Does it matter if it is only cultural?

Also, to be fair on the French, they have banned the display or wearing of all religious things – Catholic crosses, Jewish skullcaps, hijabs, everything. It is due to their long-held cultural tradition dating back the the Revolution of the separation of church and state. They even have a special word for it which escapes me – I’m sure Fiona can help though.

18 05 2010
vivisection

from the article you linked : FINAL CONCLUSION

Shoddy and misleading works like that of Amir Taheri have no relevance in this regard. Just like Muslim societies need to re-focus on the overall lives of women than reducing it to dress codes, France and other secular societies should also deal with the discriminated and neglected status of Muslims as minorities, rather than imposing such ban that contradicts Islam and the rights of Muslims or any religious community to practice their way of life and in all probability that it would alienate the Muslim community in France and worldwide.

17 05 2010
Muz

Perhaps if you cared to visit an art gallery, museum or look in a book or two on Islam going back a couple of hundred years you would find yourself struggling to find Islamic women wearing the hijab. It simply didn’t happen. Not in it’s present form anyway.

It is a modern invention.

Read below should you not be afraid of a little education.

18 05 2010
vivisection

you really need to read the whole article you linked. Its getting embarrassing for you

18 05 2010
Shirley M

It’s a delicious irony that our Muz has gone to considerable lengths to find flaws in the arguments of others on this topic.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. To be fair, Muz has never shown himself to be the sharpest tool in the ancestral shed.

19 10 2010
A MUSLIM WOMAN

This is my reply ( i have also memorised most of the quran by heart so i now what im talking about) This first came after the one telling men to lower their gaze and also gaurd their modesty…

24:31
“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their KHIMAAR****** over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband’s fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss. ”

This tells the women to draw their head covers over their body.

The dictionary of classical Arabic, Aqrab al-Mawarid: “[The word khimar refers to] all such pieces of cloth which are used to cover the head. It is a piece of cloth which is used by a woman to cover her head.”

20 05 2010
big_baggies

and it exists so men control themselves.

Amazing how Western women who defend multiculturalism and “acceptance” also scream like fish mongers wives if women are told to dress a certain way to fend off leery looks and possible attack..

17 05 2010
Tom of ??

There was an interesting story on ABC radio today about Jewish customs in regards to prayer at the Western Wall. Apparently women aren’t allowed to pray aloud as it’s offensive to the men who are allowed to pray aloud. It’s these idiotic customs that need stamping out. Similarly, whilst on the religion theme, I made the mistake of flicking to channel 7 last night. Not only was the program Sunday Night, there was doing an expose´ on Hillsong church.. Who would have thought those two horrors could combine?

17 05 2010
Tom of ??

there was an* 😉

17 05 2010
James Hunter

One point I make is that one does not need to read or understand the Quaran
to make valid critisims of the Burqa which ic one of the targets against which it is used.
The wearing of the Burqa in this society should not be allowed any where that the rest of us cannot wear a motercycly helmet. Banks,Government buildings airports for a few.
As for those that wear it round town they should remember two things; one is that if our western socialised women go to extreme muslim countries they must wear a burqa,i.e. they must fit in with the local custom,no matter that it is rat baggery. two they came to this country to escape from religious and political thuggery and that in this society they are expected to fit in , assimilate, whatever tag you prefer.
The concept is not new: “When in Rome do as the Romans do”

17 05 2010
vivisection

So James Hunter, you need a new sticker ” Strip Off or F#ck Off, We’re full Anyway”. That’s a big sticker

17 05 2010
James Hunter

viv you of all people should not vexaciously misconstrue others

17 05 2010
vivisection

sorry 🙂

17 05 2010
James Hunter

‘soright

17 05 2010
Sheikyerbouti

Tits or GTFO.

17 05 2010
vivisection

Norks Not Curtains

17 05 2010
common man

…(.)(.)….happy sheik?

17 05 2010
Tombarina

CM! Tres drolle!

17 05 2010
miss dahl
17 05 2010
Shirley M

Muslim countries have no state and secular separation like we do James. Therefore, if you do not abide by the religious laws in a muslim country, you are not abiding by the judicial laws. We are aware of that before we visit such places. Thankfully, we live in a country where this is not the case. If we ban the burqa, then we too are combining religious and judicious laws.

I choose to subscribe to no religion. I expect to be free to do this. If I wake up tomorrow and have an islamic epiphany, a hindu epiphany or a scientology epiphany, I expect the right to subscribe to and express my new found religion immediately.

18 05 2010
Sam

Turkey – Muslim country (vast majority), secular, head scarves are banned in Universities to protect secularism…not to undermine it.

17 05 2010
James

I actually agree with JH on the not wearing burkas in banks. That is a place of business, and businesses have the right to bar entry to whoever they like. This does not mean we should ban them, though.

On your second point, do you seriously mean to say that because western women must wear veils and face coverings in some Muslim countries, Muslim women here should be forced not to? Do you seriously think we should take our lead from some of the most oppressive societies in the world? As a firm believer in liberal democracy, I find the idea that we should take our lead from such authoritarian theocracies to be the ultimate insult to our way of life. A far greater insult than a mere face covering. Those who would sacrifice liberty for security, deserve neither.

18 05 2010
Sam

“I actually agree with JH on the not wearing burkas in banks. That is a place of business, and businesses have the right to bar entry to whoever they like.”

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/people/exclusive-bar-denies-access-to-actor-20090801-e540.html

This type of plan doesn’t seem too well thought out to me. Seems like it may lead to apartheid – or possibly a few instances of jihad.

Laws should be in place to circumvent these situations.

17 05 2010
Will S

It all comes down to the following argument from the bogan:

muslim countries are bad coz they’re intolerant and ban things
we’re much better than them and have better values
therefore
we should be intolerant and ban things too

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

HAHAHAHAHA Well done Will S!!

19 05 2010
miss dahl

Yes, we should ban the following:
Leggings (over a size 8)
Thunder thighs in micro-minis tottering on sky-high stilletoes
Arse antlers
Any form of cellulitic, saggy flesh on display (anywhere, anytime)
Anyone who’s IQ is less than 130 in government
Going bra-less by anyone over a size 36B (being generous here)
Bringing chattebox children in to the cinema
Any belly exposure (in anyone over age 8)

19 05 2010
miss dahl

Bloody ‘puters (stupid smiley face above should in both counts read eight!

17 05 2010
common man

Long live atheism!!!!! surely the gaza strip an the english problems orange vs others prove my point

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Religion has always been an excuse for people to be arseholes to each other. If there were no religion, there would be something else.

17 05 2010
vivisection

“arseholism” – join now!

17 05 2010
James Hunter

pete and cm want positions on the board

17 05 2010
common man

if by arsholes you mean realist’s…where do i sgn

17 05 2010
James Hunter

benji,
although most wars are supposedly fought about religion in reality they are fought for economic reasons and religion is a useful tool to appear to be on the side of “rightousness”

17 05 2010
Sten

Agreed. How else do you think Rumsfeld managed to twist Dubya’s rubber arm into going to war with Iraq?

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Here’s some alternatives Benji.

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au

😀

17 05 2010
Chrissa

You’re all a bunch of sophists! Bogans don’t need to be articulate or “clever” to understand that burqas, female circumcision etc are wrong, that is patently obvious to any reasonable person. Of course, this does not excuse any racism that they may express.

17 05 2010
common man

ill 2nd that motion^^^

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. You sure love saying “sophists”.

17 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I would think that understanding why something is wrong is fundamental to moving through life in a constructive and caring manner. Oh but you mean bogans, therein lies the problem and why we mock bogans Chrissa.

17 05 2010
James

I understand female circumcision, but why are burkas wrong? If a person chooses to wear one, in a free society like ours, what is the problem?

17 05 2010
goran

The problem, James, is that when they choose to wear a burka, they’re being ‘repressed’. When the government forbids them from wearing burka, they’re being ‘liberated’. In much the same way, I guess, as we ‘liberated’ Iraq.

17 05 2010
James

A cutting insight into bogan logic, goran. In those terms, I can understand how some people think that in order to preserve our liberty, we need to severely limit our liberty. Luckily, the bogans do not run the country (yet), I guess.

17 05 2010
common man

james REALLY if we must fit in over there we should expect the same here,you softies would not stand up for equal rights judging by your theory,just like our goverment ,bending over for the minoritys whilst ignoring our peacfull way of living by being scared that the un may report us as racists,,,again caring too much what others think whilst ignoring the majority

17 05 2010
common man

awating moderation hey??real liberal..not

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Oh I get it. We hate muslims and the rules and shit they have ‘over there’ so the only way to deal with it is to have the same kind of rules and shit over here. Yeah. That’ll f*cking teach those arabs.

19 05 2010
common man

no its called asimulation,but thanks for the over reaction

17 05 2010
James

That is not equal rights, CM. What you are talking about is equal lack of rights. I believe in western liberal democracy, and removing freedoms is inimical to that. A large part of what makes our way of life so great is our freedom. I will not apologise for the fact that I do not want our country to be counted with countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran.

17 05 2010
Mick

goran and James…is this an example of the ‘libtard’ thing martin keeps banging on about?

I think I finally understand.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

libtards are lefties Mick. Like me…I’m a libtard according to martin. 😀

17 05 2010
Peter

Oh, James Hunter, you’re lucky to live in a tolerant society. I Imagine you’d be quite irate would if tattoos were banned?

17 05 2010
Peter

Or, for that matter, your wearing of Crocs…

17 05 2010
common man

lol!!!^^^yep jh for president of assville

17 05 2010
Blueballs

Umm, I read an article entitled “A mystery wrapped in a riddle wrapped in a burqa”along a similar vain on news.com today (itself previously outed as a thing bogans like) A coincidence or are TBL running out of ideas?

Chris Deal wrote a solid article on the topic, it was originally in The Punch. We wrote ours a couple of weeks ago, so it’s just coincidence that it surfaced at a similar time. Not that we’d be horrified to admit that an article of ours was responding to a current issue of debate. TBL

17 05 2010
common man

tbl get over yourself

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Paul
anyone who studied economice or finance has no call to concider themselves an intellect.
Those “Degrees” are the only ones that you could do with out studying any facts,
Failed theories and untried theories. what a claim to intellect.
of course you have the GFC to demonstrate how smart you lot realy are.
any one with a degree in the classics or engineering knows a fact when they see one i suspect you to so unfamiliar with facts that you would not know how to recognise one

17 05 2010
Paul

And what do you know about it you silly idiot?

You wouldn’t last 5 minutes with the maths involved on the quant side.

Mathematics tends to be factual, you know.

And funny that I read history in a top British institution first up … there’s that classics degree you were looking for.

Take a closer look at your spelling and grammar, old boy.

Ahh, you people are peasants.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

Well done, Paul.

Getting involved in a ‘my education is better than yours and my job is harder than yours and I earn more money than you’ competition on the comment section of a satirical blog is something to be ever so proud of. I hope you have achieved a massive erection just thinking about how very awesome you are. Stroke away, champion.

17 05 2010
Paul

where did i quote my salary, sweetheart?

again, you are a fool.

as for your “stroking” comment – you are a vulgar woman. Class, please.

17 05 2010
Shirley M

When you used the word ‘peasants’ it implied that you are of the belief that you have more money than everyone else.

I’d rather be a vulgar woman than a conceited c*nt.

Anyways, it was nice chatting to you Paul. I hope you had a good day today. Make sure you have some lubricants handy while engaging in your self-love. xxx

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I have more money than him of course.

And by referring to us as peasants, I knew I was being excluded.

17 05 2010
Paul

Fiona, anyone who has to advertise themselves as being in “Toorark” isn’t that special.

19 05 2010
common man

i think peasents medaforicly for blogging an not living he meant

19 05 2010
Shirley M

I’m not entirely sure what your sentence means, but I think you are trying to say that Paul was not using ‘peasants’ to denote wealth. If this is the case, you’re wrong.

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Peasants is such a nasty, charged word. I prefer my description, as it’s simply a statement of fact: “the lesser people”.

19 05 2010
vivisection

or “poor c#nts”

19 05 2010
vivisection

Shirley, medaforicly = metaphorically , metaphorically speaking.

19 05 2010
Shirley M

Oh well done Viv. I spent far too many minutes trying to work that one out.

17 05 2010
toony

Thats nice that you allegedly had sex with my mother, and that all females are ‘sweetheart’…as you say, class.

I want Fancy Accountant…

It’s just ketchup and mayonnaise.

17 05 2010
vivisection

I wonder if these mathematics that he has mastered are the same as the ones developed by the stone aged bigots in the 12th century?

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Shirly M and Viv,
excellent you may have noticed I compaired to classics and engineering but did not say what my field is.
Looks like a case of two much right hand work. Should have asked for his view of the latest thoughts on how Quantum Theory can be applied to improve the appalling reliability of economic forcasting.

17 05 2010
Paul

again, you silly woman,

note that i didn’t denigrate all Muslims.

but the Wahabis: yes. this is the strain of Islam at issue.

Not particularly intelligent, are you?

17 05 2010
James

You share some things with the Wahabi, Paul. Like them, you firmly believe in telling women how to dress.

17 05 2010
Paul

You poor confused little boy.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Paul,
Take your share of the marbles and go home

17 05 2010
James

How so? I am wrong? I thought that is what you had been saying all day? Do you even know what you believe in Paul?

17 05 2010
Keeping Kosher Klansman

Request for financial advice stands.

If none is forthcoming it’s gonna have to be buy gold, buy shotgun, sit on front veranda, wait til wealth-destroying Keynesian government is booted out, sell gold, buy Aussie mining stocks, let Abbott return so-called mega-profits to rightful place, let free market decide, count cash.

What good is your Degree if you don’t share it with the proletariat, a la the benevolent Fiona of Toorak?

Perhaps the universities should merge your respective Master’s Degrees into a decade-long Degree in Bore Enforcement.

17 05 2010
James

“I read history in a top British institution” translated, means “While I was on a Contiki tour I went to a library at Oxford and read a book”.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I assure you, he would not have been allowed in. Er, that is if I went to Oxford for my higher degree in the Classics. Which I refuse to confirm or deny.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi,
Maybe the boys in the bath house allowed him in?

17 05 2010
Paul

Fiona of Toorak.

Sweetheart, you don’t count for much.

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Oh Fiona, you definitely went to Oxford.

Cambridge has a reputation for turning out actually useful graduates 😉

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Benji,
That sounds like one oxford person to another, mind you oxford the city has some quaint pubs so i can see some use in going there.

17 05 2010
Benjamin

Hehe. No I didn’t go to Oxford. Both Oxford and Cambridge don’t seem to have very good Engineering programs anyway (not really their bag, it seems).

I did live in Cambridge for a few years, which qualifies me for nothing at all, except to say it is a very pretty place indeed. It’s also a little smaller and feels less snooty.

Cambridge however has turned out more Nobel winners than Oxford; roughly double that of Oxford. It’s just a note to Fiona that however high up the chain she believes herself to be, she is still miles from the top of the heap.

And yes, I believe her alleged degree would be from Oxford.

17 05 2010
Paul

Fiona, of Toorark,

I looked for you on some of my international networks just now.

You’re not on them.

If you counted for much, you would be.

If you had the money and background you claim and allude to, you would be there.

You’re a fake, sweetheart.

17 05 2010
Keeping Kosher Klansman

Another case cracked by the Bogart of Business Class.

You watch too much Golden Age of Hollywood film noir, sweetheart.

Tell Fiona her trolls don’t add up to a hill o’ beans in this crazy world.

And if you find Lauren Bacall on one of your international networks, give me her phone number. Something tells me that nutty broad goes off like a firecracker in the sack.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Should I find myself in one of your “international networks” (LOL), I’d have myself removed from it / them forthwith.

18 05 2010
Paul

You never would have made it through the front door you poor pleb.

Here you are, commenting on this site everyday as if you’re someone special. If you were you’d be spending every day socialising on one of my networks, not on a wordpress.com blog.

Won’t be seeing you at Cannes this year or next!

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

You sir are a bogan!

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I’m quite sure I shan’t.

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Wowee. You are one skillful troll, sir. Thousands of bites. Impressive!

*doffs hat*.

The whole Quant thing doesn’t fit your persona though – consider dropping it.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. A valid point. People who come on here with an adopted persona are just asking for trouble in my opinion.

18 05 2010
Benjamin

*coffee spit*

Bwahahahaha.

Thanks Fi 🙂 You’ve made my day.

19 05 2010
common man

a self transfernce fi??

18 10 2010
Mel who wants to be Fiona of Toorak right now

I have never been motivated to post a comment in a blog …. even Muz and Paul combined couldn’t get me to actually press that reply button … but reading through these posts and Pauls comments, dear god, Fiona your post made me literally (bogue sic) pmslmao

Gold.

18 05 2010
vivisection

I think his International Network might be Facebook. or e-Harmony?

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Breaking News

An Australian man called Paul has been found to be at the centre of an International Paedophile Network.

18 05 2010
Paul

Ha!
No. Elite social networks. If you don’t know about them, it’s because you’re not meant to.
They’re invite-only, some ppl try to pay thousands of euros to get in – but to no avail.
And you lot wouldn’t make the cut!

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I wouldn’t join any “network” that only required a payment of a few thousand euro.

18 05 2010
Paul

no, Fiona, you can’t pay to get in luvvy – which is why it’s to no avail.

plebs like you occasionally get invited, then kicked out again soon after.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I wouldn’t pay to get in. I’d expect to BE paid, but they couldn’t afford the bill.

18 05 2010
James

Yes Paul. You are very important. *pats head

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Ah, I see, Amway then Paul.

18 05 2010
Paul

sorry kids. you don’t count.

oh fiona. why would any invite, let alone pay, you to join?

James et al: if you only knew what a great life it can be out there. stay in your angry little self-righteous world of mediocrity, you bunch of losers.

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Paul, haha you are a silly little man.

you can’t construct a proper argument, instead resorting to silly little comments that show off your petulance.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Paul, if your life is so “great out there”, why are you spending so much time in here, where it’s clear you’re not really wanted or welcome?

18 05 2010
James

Ah I see. Because losers feel the need to claim membership of some shadowy “elite social network” to prove a point to complete strangers.

You might want to wipe that Ed Hardy energy drink off your chin before it drips onto your new tribal tattoo while you and your fellow accountants make another go at destroying the world economy so Barack Obama throws more money at you…

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Perhaps it’s because he couldn’t get into the “Skull and Bones” James?

Perhaps there’s a facebook group of the same name that he could “Like”?

18 05 2010
James

Indeed. And he can even post “ooga booga” on its wall, and feel really part of the club.

18 05 2010
Paul

Fiona, because it’s fun pointing out what a loser you are, and a number of other commentators here, having a go at people just going about their daily lives.

James, if I wanted to make a point I would illustrate just what is out there that plebs like you miss out on.

Your comments re the North Atlantic Financial Crisis (NB, not GFC) betray your utter lack of understanding of economics and finance. Keep reading whatever you see in the Age, you silly child.

18 05 2010
James

Did I say it was a global crisis Paul? As far as I can see, I do not say it did destroy the global economy. You can parrot the Economist all you like, your lack of basic comprehension of written English is still astounding.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Well I for one enjoy having you here Paul. It’s good for us to have our own real live bogan to play with.

Muz and devil’s advocate aren’t here enough, and common man is incomprehensible at the best of times.

18 05 2010
Shirley M

It’s just a shame Paul doesn’t open up a bit more.

18 05 2010
Paul

“make another go at destroying the world economy ”

that’s what you said James, you halfwit.

go back to wherever you got your Arts degree and tell tehm you need a proper education.

Fiona, I’m not a bogan, but I know some. In fact my secretary’s husband is one. Successful carpenter, has his own business, making a nice earner. You lot must hate seeing people whom you deem educationally/socially/culturally inferior to you making a lot more money than you!

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. If it ever happened, it probably would annoy me.

Oooh. Paul. I just realised, you probably work in a job that drives all my passive income. Good boy. Keep up the good work.

18 05 2010
James

Indeed it is Paul. Nowhere in that fragment does it say that anyone actually did destroy the global economy. Just that they had a go. I know that Tafe does not put much emphasis on English comprehension, but you do your fellow alumni a disservice displaying such ignorance.

18 05 2010
vivisection

I didn’t realise my new Arseholism Group had gone international already.. So soon.

17 05 2010
Paul

haha you are a silly little man.

you can’t construct a proper argument, instead resorting to silly little comments that show off your petulance.

17 05 2010
James

Again, how so? I believe in freedom. I believe in liberal democracy. The banning of religious or cultural dress is inimical to these things. That is not so hard to understand. I thought that everyone with an education understood the basis of western liberal democracy

You are arguing that, for whatever reason, we need to proscribe such things. And your reason? I do not know, as you have not provided one. You just resort to calling those who disagree “silly”. I am just waiting for you to cite “the real world” as a source.

17 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. One would naturally suppose someone with a Master’s degree in a tradesman like subject like Finance would have a fairly good notion of a liberal democracy. It is after all the political model international trade and finance has been foisting upon us lo these many years.

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi, at least liberal democracy is a better model then the financial models they use

17 05 2010
toony

The institution was HMP Wandsworth, and there was little else to read in the library whilst awaiting charges of ‘maXXXtreme buggery.

20 05 2010
big_baggies

and Fiona does’nt have it.I know people who study or have studied history and classics and you it is an ongoing interest and learning.They constantly give away clues to their education because of their wealth of knowledge..so far all Fiona can reveal is that she imagines she has the degree.I think it is sad .

17 05 2010
SD

And I thought today’s post would be on Jessica Watson in her pink sailing machine….

17 05 2010
Mick

She must have sailed past some Islamic countries at some stage…

17 05 2010
Tombarina

SD, for some reason your description of the yacht as “pink sailing machine” is the funniest thing I’ve read all day.

Last thing that tickled my fancy so was my dad bragging about his mad skillz on the “interweb”, where he quite enjoys “serving the net”, thereby giving rise to his nickname – “Wimbledon”.

18 05 2010
SD

Wimbledon, gold!

I wish that thing was not so……pink. Yes, we get it folks-Jessica is FEMALE!

17 05 2010
Peter

Oh, James Hunter, a particularly spirited analysis of further education. My only question being: is the spirit Bundy (OP, of course) or Old Crow?

17 05 2010
James Hunter

peter you keep refering to “Old Crow”
surely what you be familiar with is “Old Crone” ?

17 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

JH, do you think Pete has to pay for his Old Crone?

17 05 2010
James Hunter

Simon,
Good spot that , reckon your on to it.
Maybe he could do a deal with Paul ? Trade some of Pauls marbles ? Might be just enough for a crone of the expected vintage !

17 05 2010
Erik

You’ve been reading Bolt’s blog haven’t you? Go and throw a few troll-bombs in there and be amused/saddened by the response. Bolt’s bogan acolytes salivate at the prospect of displaying their intimate knowledge of the Qu’ran and you are left in no doubt that they are terrified of muslims.

17 05 2010
Nickpick

Sorry to nitpick here, but I’m surprised that after so many comments that noone has noticed that ‘Qur’an’ is spelt incorrectly in the article – the apostrophe should go after the ‘r’ and not before it. Otherwise, all points raised are spot on.

Correct, Nickpick. We’re glad someone noticed the joke…TBL

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Suuuuure it was a joke…

18 05 2010
Steve

It would be funny if the apostrophe “joke” ended up with a fatwa being decreed against this site.

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Maybe Salman Rushdie is the author?

18 05 2010
Bogue

He’s been hiding in my computer all these years?

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

These Muslins are hard to hide from you know.

18 05 2010
Bogue

I’m surprised he’s managed to keep it a secret, what with all the commotion Tron is causing in there.

18 05 2010
vivisection

My Mac gets distracted every time it hears a cello playing downstairs,

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I have Scully and Mulder in mine hunting Trolls, they have been busy.

17 05 2010
Peter

Oh, James Hunter, methinks you’re wearing your burqa just a little bit too tight.

17 05 2010
Steve

It’s usually a hypocritical analysis, rather than an ill-informed one. I mean, if the Bogans are Christian… they ignore the disgusting parts of the Bible and focus on the disgusting parts of a book based on the Bible (i.e. the Qur’an).

17 05 2010
Andrew

Well done TBL, a provocative post that bought a smile to the dial and charged the grey matter. As it seems to have done to everyone.
I don’t profess to any great knowledge of the Qur’an and my belief in a god – call him/her Buddah, Allah, Yahweh, Jehovah, et al might make me a bogan in the eyes of some on this site.
However, I was blessed to enjoy a thorough insight into ramadan by my close friendship with a very dear workmate and devoted Muslim.
Like many, I’m sure we grew up inundated with images of mad Muslims stampeding each other during the hajj and wondered what it was all about.
But my friend showed me how ramadan was a time of fasting he used to refocus his life, and reinstill his Muslim values of patience, modesty and spirituality.
The most beautiful part of the period came at the end and the Eid festival. Not only was it a chance to partake of some magnificent food, it was also the time to atone for any wrongs you felt you had committed against friend or family. It was the time when you offered your apology and, if the person you offered the apology to stayed true to Muslim ideology, he/she was obliged to accept and forgive.
Some may call it simple; I found it heart warming and inspiring. No zealots promoting war on non believers, just good people doing their best to live a good life.
Just my 2c

18 05 2010
olly

Ode to Paul, you self satisfied little creep. By John Cooper Clarke
Like a Night Club in the morning, you’re the bitter end.
Like a recently disinfected shit-house, you’re clean round the bend.
You give me the horrors
too bad to be true
All of my tomorrow’s
are lousy coz of you.
You put the Shat in Shatter
Put the Pain in Spain
Your germs are splattered about
Your face is just a stain

You’re certainly no raver, commonly known as a drag.
Do us all a favour, here… wear this polythene bag.

You’re like a dose of scabies,
I’ve got you under my skin.
You make life a fairy tale… Grimm!

People mention murder, the moment you arrive.
I’d consider killing you if I thought you were alive.
You’ve got this slippery quality,
it makes me think of phlegm,
and a dual personality
I hate both of them.

Your bad breath, vamps disease, destruction, and decay.
Please, please, please, please, take yourself away.
Like a death a birthday party,
you ruin all the fun.
Like a sucked and spat our smartie,
you’re no use to anyone.
Like the shadow of the guillotine
on a dead consumptive’s face.
Speaking as an outsider,
what do you think of the human race

You went to a progressive psychiatrist.
He recommended suicide…
before scratching your bad name off his list,
and pointing the way outside.

You hear laughter breaking through, it makes you want to fart.
You’re heading for a breakdown,
better pull yourself apart.

Your dirty name gets passed about when something goes amiss.
Your attitudes are platitudes,
just make me wanna piss.

What kind of creature bore you
Was is some kind of bat
They can’t find a good word for you,
but I can…
Twat !

18 05 2010
Paul

another poor piece of trash. haha.

Want to talk about things being shattered? You wouldn’t want to come and mouth of your little spiel to my face. I’d give you a nice and very quick kung fu lesson.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. A Master’s degree in a tradesman like subject AND a Kung Fu master. It seems you’re quite accomplished. LOL.

18 05 2010
James

The hole Paul digs just keeps getting deeper.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I most enjoy how oblivious he is to the fact that he is the very model for TBL’s missive on the subject.

18 05 2010
Shirley M

An accountant who’s read some history books in England who knows kung fu? Where can I sign up to your fan club, Paul?

Which school of kung fu do you subscribe to?

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Paul is a master of the little known branch Hong Kong Fooey.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

@ Simon GAA- MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I believe the line for the fan club forms at his lunch box.

18 05 2010
Paul

CLF my dear.

and I’m not an accountant 🙂

18 05 2010
Shirley M

CLF. I should have known.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Chai Latte Fat Kung Fu huh?

18 05 2010
Shirley M

Not a bad analogy, actually Fiona. It encompasses the ‘offensive to purists’ theme quite nicely.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Analogy? I was being serious…

18 05 2010
Paul

i thought I was a bogan a few posts back. why would i start drinking chai lattes?

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Bogues love Chai Latte.

18 05 2010
James Hunter

Paul would need a 15 Bar expresso machine and a full time barista to keep up

18 05 2010
James Hunter

guess not accountants have to know some facts and to be successful need to be good at interpersonal relationships.

18 05 2010
toony

No, as we established last evening, you are a Fancy Accountant. 😀

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

“All Fancy ‘n’ Shit Accountant” Toony 😀

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

HAHAHAHA You’re a BOGAN!!! Instead of “kung fu” insert “glass”. You’re such a moron.

18 05 2010
chubbybloodfart

reason compells me once more to address all of those who have professed to “faith” in this simalacrum of civic discourse;
Please, for the sake of humanity and possibly the first spark of life in the universe, surrender this idea of your omnipotent, anthropomorphic God and encourage your cronies to do the same. Equip yourself with some facts about the current state of scientific enquiry (the bloody discovery channel will do) and seriously weigh it in the balance. Does the intelligence you profess to be behind the universe really care what kind of hat you wear?
really. Snap out of it. Grow up. Use the brain evolution gave you.
if you need a moral code try Taoism, or aristotle’s bloody “ethics”
anything.
i remain staggered to see grown adults in the twenty first century arguing/discussing folk tales.
It’s simply pathetic.

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Why do you care what I believe Chubby? Why do you care what anyone believes?

Leave folks to their beliefs – they can think what they want. Judge actions, not beliefs.

18 05 2010
James Hunter

Chubby,
Great to see some one put the god case so well.
just as great to see capable hands continuing the Paul baiting. ,wonder if he has hair on the palm of his hands?

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Most probably his knuckles too.

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Disagree on the Paul baiting. I think you have it backwards.

He’s baiting you.

18 05 2010
Paul

Shh, please, keep my secret 🙂

18 05 2010
James Hunter

bugger that would mean he is having as much fun as we are

18 05 2010
Benjamin

You may be having fun – by my reading there are others that are not.

He’s also stealing their time by causing people to write thoughtful responses even though there is no point…

And now I’m wasting my time here! Urk!

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

You’re right Benji. We must remember for some it is fun for others it is personal. Thanks for bring that to our attention Benji! You’re a good egg.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

wonder if has any hair at all, that’s not provided by Advanced Hair…YEAH YEAH

18 05 2010
James Hunter

maybe he’s got one of those “hair Fusion” home laser thingys ? mind you the fusion part sounds a bit scarey; imported from the Hadron Collider no doubts

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

@JH Frying the last of his functioning brain cell. hehehehehe

18 05 2010
chubbybloodfart

Benj, it wasn’t a troll, so I don’t want to argue it, but you put it perfectly anyway, look at the actions predicated on those beliefs. Religon is proto science. Pre enlightened attempts to explain the universe. As alchemy is to chemistry, Religon is to science. we have no further need of it and people need to be educated thus. With all the love in the world Benj, to think otherwise is wilfully narrow minded. I could live and let live once, but I now live with the faintest threat that the bus I am travelling on may detonate in what is essentially a maxtreme battle of the Gods which began with the crusades. I blame no one branch of faith more than any other. The very concept is a tumour on civilisation.
I’ll let that stand. I’m doing this from a mobile phone and the tiny keyboard does not support polemic.

18 05 2010
James Hunter

Chubby,
Beautifully put.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Chubby,

I feel exactly the same and am getting more involved with the AFA.

Not sure if your a member or not, but if not here’s the link

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au

19 05 2010
common man

ahhh common sense prevails..^^

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Oh well, I guess we’ll have to disagree on a few things – no bad thing.

Personally, I don’t think the analogy of “alchemy to chemistry” and “religion is to science” stands. Myself, I’m an Engineer (electrical and computer systems). I’ve read widely in science and tech, and am very interested in physics, particularly the amazing and fascinating stuff that happens at the sub atomic level. I’ve never been a creationist (now there is indeed something for which your analogy stands).

Religious beliefs are axiomatic. While chemistry can disprove alchemy, science cannot either prove or disprove the existence of a creator (at least currently!). Therein lies the difference.

It’s a little analagous to current string theory, which is almost a belief rather than a science. A recent Big Bang Theory (I like it – sue me!) episode had this exchange:

Leslie: “You must agree that quantum loop gravity provides more testable hypotheses than string theory”
Sheldon: “Balderdash. Matter clearly consists of tiny strings.”

I actually find this absolutely hilarious on many levels (this show has some very clever writers). Probably just me though.

Anyway. None of my own beliefs are incompatible with science. I want to know how the universe works in a mechanical sense. I want to understand. I don’t believe I am narrow minded.

You mention that you are a Carl Sagan fan. Have you read/seen Contact (you must have)? I’m yet to read the book, but the movie is one of my absolute favourites, and explores the relationship (or lack thereof) between science and belief admirably in my opinion. Great flick too, even with Matthew McCo (can’t remember how to spell his name).

So what is the problem with my beliefs? I’m not held back by them. Nor do I attempt to hold back others with my beliefs. My beliefs compel me to compassion, charity, and attempting to understand and see anothers point of view. My beliefs compel me to be honest, tolerant and accepting. My beliefs compel me to affect the world by being an example to others, not attempting to change them through coercion and fear. My beliefs tell me that I’m not perfect and to accept that in myself and others.

In other words my beliefs compel me to be the person I *want* to be anyway! Of course, I’m often not successful, perhaps most of the time. A read back at my comments here would be enough to show you that.

But again. My beliefs are axiomatic – they can’t be tested by science. Your belief that there is no god can’t be tested either. We have to respect each others beliefs here.

As for blowing busses up etc. To me religion alone as a reason doesn’t cut it. I’m not going to godwin this thread, but you get the idea. Religion doesn’t have a monopoly on this stuff. Instead in many cases it is merely a tool used by those who wish to control others for personal gain. Some others instead use nationalism, tribal pride or a combination of a number of things to stir up their followers to commit atrocity.

Religion is probably an easier tool for sociopaths to manipulate others, but is by no means the only one. Humans have always been capable of horror – religion aside.

On the flip side, religious organisations have often been the source of tremendous humanitarian aid, and have supported those in need, in many (most?) cases regardless of the creed of those that need help. There are countless examples of this throughout the world. It isn’t fair to lump those folks in with the terrorists…

Ok. I’m going to cop it. But there you go.

18 05 2010
Girl of Madness

I am not a religious person on ANY level and I am compelled to be a good human being despite them. You are clearly weak if you need to believe in an afterlife with Jesus in order to be a decent human being now. Now stop talking. No body cares about you and what you think.

18 05 2010
Benjamin

“I am not a religious person on ANY level and I am compelled to be a good human being despite them.”

Excellent. I am pleased to here that.

“You are clearly weak if you need to believe in an afterlife with Jesus in order to be a decent human being now.”

I agree. However, you may have missed my comment here: “In other words my beliefs compel me to be the person I *want* to be!”.

“No body cares about you and what you think.”

That appears to be a trifle inconsistent.

If you wish to be a decent human, please tolerate my beliefs. I’m not trying to force them down anyones throat; I just want to have a decent debate with Chubby (who I *like*). Feel free to ignore me, but please don’t attempt to censor me either.

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Ugh. Pleased to “hear” not “here”. More coffee please.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

**runs to coffee machine**

18 05 2010
Andrew

Well said Ben. Like you I have a belief in a God – call him/her what you want.
Does that make me weak? If you choose to think so, so be it. Personally, I found it interesting you choose to believe that we are nothing more than parasites who exist for 70 odd years than just disappear. Sounds like a tremendously ordinary existence you choose to cling to. But good luck to you if you do. SEP.
And let’s be clear here – it’s faith, not religion. Two entirely different beasts.
Further 2c spent. Please resume normal programming…

18 05 2010
Benjamin

“it’s faith, not religion”

That’s a fair point. Thanks.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Hardly ordinary Andrew, nature is the most beautiful and mind blowing subjects of all. The fraility, yet strength of nature is awesome.

I wish I were better with words, where’s Chubby when I need him. 😦

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

GOM, I feel that’s a little harsh on Benj. Please don’t give us Atheists a worse name than we already have. It doesn’t help our cause. I support your passion, just back off with the insults.

For all the time that Benji has been posting on here I have found him to be a very sincere and posts well thought out mostly rational arguments. Sometimes I agree with him sometimes I don’t, but he is rarely rude.
(I do realise this is the intrawebnet and he maybe a middle aged woman in a back room internet cafe but on face value) he often posts with insightful comments, and I have often read him admitting to his lack of perfection. He’s never been one to start stupid arguments.

So come on now, lets play nice 🙂

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Thanks very much Pinky. Appreciated.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

No worries Benji, anything for a fellow anti-bogan 😉

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

If you’re an Engineer Benji (and I am saying this because I always enjoy your posts and nearly fell off my chair when you said you believed in God) how can you believe in god after everything science has enlightened us on? How do you reconcile your religion with your knowledge of science? Do you believe in evolution? Creationism? or cheeses forbid, Higher intelligence? It concerns me that some like yourself, needs a god, when science is already so awesome.

In my opinion, God is an insult to nature.

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Thanks for the questions Pinky. I’ll try to explain. The rest of you folks may (will!) wish to ignore this one.

Yes I am an Engineer.

No – I don’t have a problem with science and my faith. The two are quite separate as far as my beliefs go. Science describes creation; faith deals with the creator. Do you follow the distinction?

Science will almost certainly eventually describe everything in creation down to the barest fundamentals. That doesn’t deal with what is *outside* that universe, and therefore doesn’t conflict to me. Convenient, I know, but that’s the way I see it. It’s axiomatic; that’s the nature of faith.

Now, religious *organisations* and science have definitely clashed over the years. There has been persecution and worse (sigh). I don’t think that this (or any) kind of persecution could ever be justified by the very basic tenets of Christianity. From the accounts in the bible, I’d find it difficult that Jesus would condone any such thing; and indeed during his time he openly criticised religious abuses by the Jewish religious heirarchy, which ultimately led to his execution.

Various fundamentalists (sigh) types will go into heated battle for literal interpretations of a number of bible passages (particularly in the Old Testament – much of which is superceded by the Gospels) such as creation and what not. I don’t, and personally I think they care about the wrong things; none of that really matters and I can’t bring myself to believe that God would accept or reject anyone over their belief or non-belief in these things.

As for the specifics, I believe that Evolution is the best description to fit the observations. I’m no creationist by *any* stretch. I’m of the school that sees these stories as allegory and metaphor. Again, convenient, but there you go.

I’m not sure I can see how God is an insult to nature. I’ll think about that one.

As for need. Personally, I believe in God as a direct result of my experiences. Things have happened to me that gave me more than enough to make this so. You’ll have to take my word for that – they are all pretty personal,and personally I have nothing really to gain by lying to you here. You might consider me deluded (perhaps I am) but it I get a lot out of my beliefs, it helps me to be a better person, and provides solace during the bad times. It’s not a matter of need. It’s something else – kinda hard to explain.

Cheers!

18 05 2010
Shirley M

Do you actually attend church, Benjamin? If you don’t mind me asking…

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Yup, once or twice a month. We’re Anglicans though and pretty laid back all things considered.

No extreme folks here, as far as I can tell.

18 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Benji,

Thank you for your open and honest answer. I have no desire to call you deluded, as name calling is pointless and totally against my general practice, I do however resort to it sometimes, because I loose my patients, for bogan’s in particular.

i do find some of your reasoning to be ‘convenient” and it makes me wonder, how is it okay to have convenient answers? I’m just confused as to how you can accept Intelligent Design? The model has been tested and discredited by all major Uni’s. World wide.

You can’t see the insult because you cannot see the whole view. Please don’t take this as inflammatory as it isn’t intended to be. There are some fantastic doco’s on this very subject, that I think might be of interest. If you would watch them, you might be able to see where I am coming from.

Richard Dawkins “The Root Of All Evil”

Don’t be misled by the title. Prof Dawkins didn’t want to call it that, because it automatically puts Christians off, but the BBC would changed it. So there you go.

I only ask this because I can see that you are, as a general rule, a rational reasonable person.

I was raised as a strict christian, so I know where you are coming from. It took me a long time to see what I call truth.

I’m not trying to convert you or anything like that. Just offering another point of view.

Thank you again for honest. It’s good to see 😀

18 05 2010
Benjamin

Hey again Pinky.

Thanks again. I do enjoy this kind of banter.

“I do find some of your reasoning to be “convenient” and it makes me wonder, how is it okay to have convenient answers?”

Well I guess in matters of faith, every argument is convenient, as they can’t be tested. Faith is a belief in what cannot be empirically proved. That’s pretty much the rub, barring God turning up on Hey Hey. The Gospels document something similar happening long ago, but you can’t go back in time and see it for yourself

“I’m just confused as to how you can accept Intelligent Design? The model has been tested and discredited by all major Uni’s. World wide.”

That’s an easy one ;-). I don’t. Intelligent design strikes me as utter tripe, and appears to be a back door to get fundamentalist creationist dogma into science education, primarily in the US.

It *isn’t* science! Religion and faith is more akin to philosophy and has no place in the science curriculum. Science isn’t about belief, it’s about postulating hypotheses and testing them. Intelligent design can’t be falsified, so it isn’t science!!!

You can believe in creationism (I don’t) but best to be honest about it.

Heck, the Vatican has come out and denied it. From wikipedia: “As well as pointing out that intelligent design is not science, they (the Vatican) also reject it for various philosophical and theological reasons”. Good for them I say.

Sorry. Intelligent design really gets my goat, and I shudder whenever I see it mentioned in the news.

Keep in mind – not all Christians are nutters. No Christians I know accept intelligent design as science.

“Richard Dawkins ‘The Root Of All Evil'”

I should probably have a look. I’ve read some choice quotes of his (don’t agree, natch), but I really ought to take a look at his stuff.

“Thank you again for honest. It’s good to see”

Likewise. Thanks, and have a good evening.

18 05 2010
Girl of Madness

I’m still confused Benji… So because you are Christian does that make all other beliefs false? Because if you say you are a Christian you are also rejecting all other faiths right? So therefore you don’t believe in the same theories as say, Hindus… so what will happen to those people? You say you tolerate other religions. But if they are not falling the same path as you, which I assume to believe yourself to be the right way, what will happen to them? You are tolerating them while in full knowledge of their future demise?

You said that you felt throughout your life that there was a God through specific events that happened to you. Isn’t that just luck that you were born in the ‘lucky’ country and not say as a woman in the middle east who gets violently beaten by her husband every night because she smiled at another man? (My personal experience here)

What you believe in is lucky on WHERE and WHEN (what century) you were born in. After all, surely all those people who believed in Greek mythology didn’t end up in hell right? If people have been around for tens of thousands of years then what happened to all those pre “enlightenment”?

I’m sorry but I have seen some incredible evil in the name of faith and prefer to think that we’re only here for evolutionary purposes. I hate the idea of a life of “suffering” imposed by so many faith-pushers and the idea of a religious person saying that they tolerate other religions is just hypocritical….

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Thanks for the change of tone.

“So because you are Christian does that make all other beliefs false? Because if you say you are a Christian you are also rejecting all other faiths right?”

Perhaps you are trying to get a rise out of me (or not!), but if you are I’m probably not the right person to go after. The fundamentalists are your target and hopefully I’ve demonstrated that I’m not one of them.

But for me, God is compassionate. I don’t believe that there is only one path to God. Christianity is my path; Jews and Muslims have another. There are almost more beliefs than there are bogans. For me the core of Christianity is the law as expressed by Christ – basically Love God, Love each other. Everything else is of lesser import. I see this in other faiths.

Further, and this is contentious, I believe there is a difference between rejection and non-belief. Folks that are born, live, and die in isolation cannot and should not be held accountable for that. That’s not compassion to me.

“You are tolerating them while in full knowledge of their future demise?”

Like I say, I don’t believe those folks are headed for demise. So, that’s a fairly easy one. At any rate, if I did believe that, then why would I hate them for it? Part of spiritual growth is questioning and doubt, and at the end of the day, I might be wrong. I don’t believe so, but must accept the possibility.

Actually that last bit goes for everything, not just religion.

Anyway, to me, tolerating belief and tolerating behaviour are two very different things. If they kill, steal, cheat, abuse or whatever, *regardless* of whether they are motivated by religion or plain old hate then that I do *not* have tolerance for.

“You said that you felt throughout your life that there was a God through specific events that happened to you. Isn’t that just luck that you were born in the ‘lucky’ country and not say as a woman in the middle east who gets violently beaten by her husband every night because she smiled at another man? (My personal experience here)”

I’m sorry to hear that – that’s horrible. There is no excuse for that behaviour.

I can say that I am indeed an extremely lucky person. Most of us here are. We live in a fabulous and mostly free nation. Yes, I’m fortunate, and I have no illusions otherwise.

As for how I had these experiences and others don’t? Well, I’m not certain, but a clue might be in something that came out during a lengthy discussion with a Mormon missionary. The way it works for them appeared to be that folks can search for God (and they entreat people to do this), and find him/her/them/it that way. I was raised Christian (but went through the doubt and questioning phase, for which I am grateful), so that is probably what happened here. I went looking and I found. Call me nuts, but there you go.

I’ve arrived at my beliefs through questioning, reading, listening, and trying to make sense of it all. This is ongoing and is more of a journey than a state. I hope that many other people with beliefs are the same. At our local church, the priests encourage people to doubt and question – a very good thing in my opinion. Complete acceptance without doubt and questioning is extremely dangerous; it opens the door to all kinds of horror.

“I’m sorry but I have seen some incredible evil in the name of faith”

I’d swap faith for religion here, but that is absolutely fair comment. There is no shortage of evil done in this world in the name of god. Those of us who believe in mercy and compassion are sickened by this kind of stuff, whether we be religious or secular.

“and prefer to think that we’re only here for evolutionary purposes.”

As is your right. I believe different, and that’s ok. We have free will and can make our own choices.

“I hate the idea of a life of suffering imposed by so many faith-pushers”.

As do I. There can be few things worse than committing atrocity in the name of God.

“the idea of a religious person saying that they tolerate other religions is just hypocritical”

I’m not sure I follow. I have friends and associates with faiths other than mine, as well as open atheists. I certainly don’t feel like a hypocrite.

18 05 2010
Girl of Madness

“Rather than bring the full force of our creativity and rationality to bear on the problems of ethics, social cohesion, and even spiritual experience, moderates merely ask that we relax our standard of adherence to ancient superstitions and taboos, while otherwise maintaining a belief system that was passed down to us from men and women whose lives were simply ravaged by their basic ignorance about the world.” – Sam Harris

19 05 2010
Benjamin

That’s interesting. But I think that could be a little simplistic in the implied conclusion.

We have criminals in our family tree and I carry their genes, yet I’m not a criminal. I’m descended from apes, yet I have indoor plumbing. Humanity has grown and learned, and the world has changed.

Religion, specifically Christianity isn’t static. In my religious circles, acceptance is in, intolerance is out. The Vatican (I’m not Catholic BTW) has an observatory and employs scientific staff, and is fine with Evolution and science generally (sure it is backward on many things, but is has and does progress). Women and Gay people are being ordained in some Anglican churches. The Old Testament and New Testament are different and show pretty fundamental change.

I suppose I’m a moderate then (probably more a progressive), but I don’t see the problem with that. I have a belief system that was handed down through the ages – this is true – but isn’t the same as it once was. The ignorance of those that used religion long ago to retard progress isn’t shared by me; I’m curious and want to know.

As I’ve already said, the core of my beliefs are that *I* should love God and each other. The first applies only to me, and is nobody else’s business. The second seems like a pretty damn good basis for ethics, and I don’t see how that restricts anything negatively; heck it doesn’t even require that others love you, only that you love them(!).

I am a bit of a hypocrite in that I don’t always act this out in my life. I’m human, but I try to examine, grow, learn and improve.

And now a couple of dreadful quotes:

“What the world needs now is Love”. (Vomit, but it’s true).

“Be excellent to each other, and party on dude”

19 05 2010
Shirley M

Benji, I embrace anyone who appreciates Bill and Ted on the same profound level as I do. x

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Thanks Shirley.

I do believe that the quote is the single greatest piece of modern philosophy 🙂

19 05 2010
Shirley M

I absolutely agree.

I also love that Billy the Kid and Socrates become best mates in that movie.

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I could never understand why we were told to look up Socrates in the encyclopedia under “So crates”.

19 05 2010
Shirley M

Thank goodness your higher degree in the classics has sorted that out for you.

A young lady once asked me if I was familiar with the works of Thuck-a-diddies (my attempt at phonetic spelling – hope it’s clear). She was doing a major in Ancient History. 😐

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Who would have thought when I undertook my higher degree in the Classics just how useful it would turn out to be? Well, me for one.

Clearly she was studying at one of the lesser universities. Perhaps under James at ANU?

19 05 2010
James

If I had been asked that question, Fiona, she would not have been studying at ANU for much longer…

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Only because she’d have embarrassed you by asking you a question you couldn’t answer…

19 05 2010
James

Ouch. Had I not already, in a previous thread, made my in-depth knowledge of the work of Thucydides public, I would be offended by that. In any case, how can one expect a classicist to be familiar with Thucydides’ contribution to modern realist political thought?

19 05 2010
Shirley M

It’s my understanding James that anyone who studies the classics does so with the purpose of applying that knowledge to all modern schools of thought.

19 05 2010
James

Perhaps, Shirley, but it is my understanding that Fiona has no such intention, and merely studied the classics so as to look clever on blogs bagging bogans…

I missed this – lets never be allies again, Fiona.

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Thank you for pointing out that I am clever James, although, I must say that validation from you on this score is no validation at all.

And yes. Let’s never not fight again. *kiss*

19 05 2010
James

That is all well and good then. However, if you take close notice of my post, you will see that I do not point out that you are clever. I merely say you “look clever”. Thus, despite the meaninglessness of otherwise of my validation, you still lack it.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Benji,
I love this banter too but would prefer not to take up TBL’s space.

http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au is the place to go. Christians are more than welcome.

Hope to see you there Benji, I think you’re very interesting. 😀

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Thanks for the invite – perhaps I will. Having said that I’ve used up a lot of time writing about this over the last couple of days, and that really isn’t sustainable… I get sucked into this stuff and time is indeed limited, esp at the moment. (Wowee – that sounds like a copout, doesn’t it?).

This is also a site where people profess to be self aware, thoughtful, educated and open to argument and so forth (and I’ve found this to be largely true). And so I’m comfortable that posting clear argument here might shed some light on my faith to those that may be brought to understand my position and respect my beliefs, even (and especially) if they don’t share them. This TBL article is more about understanding than anything else. Also, discussion here need not be combative.

Religious (and probably non-religious boards) are a bit more partisan, and I’m sure there are closed minded atheists just like there are close minded Christians. What are folks like on your boards?

19 05 2010
Sibyl Ince

Benj, of course the Vatican employs science, otherwise neither they, nor we, would kinow when Easter is. We all need the services of stargazers to tell us when the third full moon of the year is, so that we know when to start planting chocolate.

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Good point. Time for some more reading…

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Sybil, wikipedia isn’t the most reliable thing in the world, but I’ve found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Advanced_Technology_Telescope

Looks like they do more than just Easter.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Benji,
I have found the people on the AFA to be very kind people. I have never been abused, or yelled at online, even by Christians.

Of course there are close minded atheist. No group is lucky enough to miss out on them. I don’t subscribe to fundamentalism of any kind. If someone asks me (in real time) I will give my honest answer. In my job, I ask A LOT of questions, and it kind of flows into my ‘normal life’ bahahaha like I have a ‘normal life! Sorry back to my point…

I’m really starting to get annoyed at peoples (not you or anyone here! This is a general ‘life’ comment) who believe we are devil worshiping, baby eating, misogynists. Most of the active atheists I have met are passive, community minded folk. No baby eating or anything.

I certainly hope that you do come and visit at least to the AFA,

Come and say hi to me. 😛

I am happy to discuss this on here, I was just worried the Big Dudes at TBL may get a little pissed that we are taking up space.

😀

We have entirely lost track and control of this comments thread. Knock yourself out. TBL

19 05 2010
brad

Bill and Ted and Yoda-Sages for the ages,”Be or be not”

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Benj, I have to come to my beloved Sam Harris’ defense. Nothing he says is over simplified.

One of my favourites of his is “A letter to the Christian Nation”

This is a great post…love it 😀

And yes, “Be excellent to each other” I try to everyday 😉

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I love Sam Harris GOM, he’s smart, funny, yummy to look at and an atheist…YUUUMMMMM

19 05 2010
Girl of Madness

Sam Harris is chocolate 🙂

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

**drool**

19 05 2010
SD

P!nky I am a scientist too but can perfectly understand where Benji is coming from and appreciate his courage in putting forward his viewpoint. I may not personally believe in God but I don’t think I judge people who do nor can I buy the religion is the root of all violence and evil (certainly I can see a war between bogues and non bogues!). Militant atheism is in fact unattractive in its very certainties – quite the opposite I think of what science is intended to be.

The religious impulse exists in *all* societies and can work in good and bad ways. It’s also a little deeper than the fear and irrationality arguments usually trotted out. The Q is therefore is why do people believe in it and what drives us to it not to mount arguments negating the impulse. Also while I am against attributing everything to genes, it interests me that the biological roots of homosexuality are now being explored but a similar approach is not extended to the religious impulse.

19 05 2010
vivisection

To be glib, isn’t it just the opiate/endorphin release associated with a religious experience, combined with the sheer delight of not being held responsible or accountable, the essence of continued religious impulse? Similar to the genetic predisposition to eating disorders (that opiate rush fromhunger), the devout religious follower enjoys the ongoing sedation provided by their church of choice.

Interestingly, I’ve had two former housemates, both with prior heroin habits, convert – 1 to Islam, the other to Fundamentalist Christianity. Then again, maybe I drove them to it?

Marx – “Religion is the opium of the masses”

19 05 2010
vivisection

To be glib, isn’t it just the opiate/endorphin release associated with a religious experience, combined with the sheer delight of not being held responsible or accountable, the essence of continued religious impulse? Similar to the genetic predisposition to eating disorders (that opiate rush from hunger), the devout religious follower enjoys the ongoing sedation provided by their church of choice.

Interestingly, I’ve had two former housemates, both with prior heroin habits, convert – 1 to Islam, the other to Fundamentalist Christianity. Then again, maybe I drove them to it?

Marx – “Religion is the opium of the masses”

19 05 2010
vivisection

why twice, why?????

19 05 2010
SD

True but the same may be said of falling in love – in fact any emotion can be found to be a balance of chemicals. Nevertheless there is something transcendental about being in the state of love, in the presence of a God you believe in, at Uluru – or at least some sort of human need to achieve that state of transcendence. I don’t think you can knock down one in favour of the other. Also that opiate quote is overused by now given how quickly Marxism can become like a fix in itself:-).

Once good, twice better!

19 05 2010
vivisection

I guess my theory (making it up as I go!) , is that some people have a genetic predisposition to either be addicted to the chemical release, more than others , or to create higher levels of the chemical release than others, making it more pleasurable?

You’re right about the Marxism fix -It’s so much fun to watch undergrad students join the Socialist Alliance and attend every rally for every cause no matter what it is! The enthusiasm is hilarious – Bless ’em.

19 05 2010
SD

It’s true! – but religious “highs” (as in the Sufis, staying on Islam) can be sometimes more benign and beautiful than the shroom ones – though -ahem – some “aids” to mysticism must no doubt be part of the ritual!

so true – bless the marxist undergrads- as the saying goes you have to be a pretty cold hearted bastard to be a capitalist at 16!

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Interesting. I’m sure some people have a genetic predisposition to religion (see my comment a wee bit lower).

However – don’t quite get the pleasure thing.

If it helps – as a data point, my reaction to the practice of my beliefs are more a long the lines of a feeling of peace, not pleasure. I don’t really get that endorphin thing (does anyone?). Make of that what you will.

BTW – well put SD. Viewing every emotion as hormones and neural impulses is downright unsatisfying, however accurate it may be at that level.

19 05 2010
vivisection

I wouldn’t consider it a pleasure, as in ” I just won the lotto ” kind of pleasure, perhaps it is a chemical release that negates the effects of depression (or lower than ideal serotonin levels), bringing the person back to a state of “normality” or peace – for want of a better word.

19 05 2010
vivisection

But then, what do I know?? As a gay person, I think it doesn’t matter why, its irrelevant because we just are and we don’t need to justify our existence. At the end of the day, I would apply the same reasoning to a person with strong religious affiliations or beliefs.

19 05 2010
SD

Benji that was in response to the discussion with Vivisection on the pleasure principle. But of course it is not that everyone is going down that path – though the state of ecstacy (not the drug!) is a part of every religion I think.

Well I am off, thank you Vivisection (& Benji) much enjoyed and was influenced by your thoughtful comments today.

PS: P!nky the lords of TBL are hardly going to mind 500+ comments on everything under the sun!

19 05 2010
vivisection

Likewise SD, have a great night

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Likewise guys. I enjoyed this.

And the fact that we can discuss it in a civilised manner makes me a very happy chappy indeed.

Time for a drink.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Benji,
“Viewing every emotion as hormones and neural impulses is downright unsatisfying, however accurate it may be at that level.”

I get SO much satisfaction from the idea that neural impulses, hormones, and electricity, make us who we are. Isn’t that amazing? For million’s of years, those neural impulses have been refining themselves, becoming sometimes better, some times a bit odd.

The human psyche is the most amazing thing. The brain can protect itself from remembering something traumatic. Either by blacking out or to the more extreme multiple personality disorder.

Peoples experiences can change the chemicals in their brain. Good or bad. To me that is just mind blowing.

Sorry, pet subject 😀

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

“PS: P!nky the lords of TBL are hardly going to mind 500+ comments on everything under the sun!”

I worry about stupid stuff SD. It’s a gift 😛

Thank you for your really kind words earlier, I try to be kind, in the hope that it catches. I am of the school of thought, that no harm is come from saying something nice to someone. If we all did this only once a day, we would improve our happiness quota by 500+ billion.

Thank you again you have given much food for thought, which makes my inner nerd excited.

Have a good night SD!!

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Thanks for the kind words SD. It isn’t so much courage – it’s mostly anonymous here, and anyway people who know me well know this much anyway.

“but a similar approach is not extended to the religious impulse”

Well, there is, after a fashion. I remember reading a couple of years ago about a study that found that a number of religious folks have a certain enlarged area of the brain (sorry – forgotten most of the detail – I’m sure it’s available online). This research was at an early stage when I read it, but nonetheless it was being done.

So, don’t despair, there are folks looking at this stuff.

19 05 2010
vivisection

We can only hope the purpose for looking is not to find a cure. It takes all types!

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Dammit. Flashbacks to X-Men 3.

The future will be an interesting place, when they figure all of this out.

19 05 2010
SD

Well even anonymity doesn’t preclude wanting to be part of a group so props for it!

I think the NYT also had an article of sorts but I think its more that the defence of religion has in a way become unfashionable. Even though I don’t practice any religion, the why of it is part of science to my thinking but fixed positions on atheism sometimes seem more ideological.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

SD,

I too believe that Our Dear Benji was very brave and hence me asking questions. I’m afraid that I am a question asker, my intention is never to be inflammatory, but just to gauge where someone is coming from. I really like Benji, I hope that has come through! The last thing I want is to come off as some arsehole Atheist. I do apologise if that is how I have come off. I just thought that Our Dearest Benji would like the chance to read where I am coming from, just because of some of the things he has said.

SD, I often follow your threads (hardly answer because your heaps smarter than me and I don’t want to look more stupid than I already do) and I have found you to be a very compassionate and passionate person. This is rare.

I have been keeping a breast of the “Gay Gene” as it interests me. I was very excited. I think the human body is one of the fascinating areas of science.

I didn’t mean to offend anyone, honest 😦

19 05 2010
SD

P!nky you could never offend anyone, it’s quite clear that you are curious + your good naturedness comes out in every post!! And I totally agree with you that atheists should not be demonised. I meant the movement in general and not your views + of course I am not exactly a believer myself!

Follow your posts too. And thanks for the compliments! I am so using that compassionate and passionate tag for meself!

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Who demonises atheists? Atheists make up the intelligentsia, therefore there is no group capable of demonising them – they are merely subject to a form of anti-intellectualism from the bogan horde.

19 05 2010
Benjamin

“Atheists make up the intelligentsia”

Not all of it, Fiona 🙂

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

**blushes**

19 05 2010
Benjamin

“my intention is never to be inflammatory”

There was never a problem – Fuggedaboudit 😉 Being inquisitive is a virtue. And for me it provided the opportunity to share my views and discuss them. Yep, and I hope we do have a better understanding of where we are each coming from I hope.

Like they say – the world would be a boring place if we all agreed with each other about everything.

“Our Dearest Benji” – Erm, not so keen on that. It’s better than “Our Benji the bit of a thicky” or “Our Benji the harmless-but-daft”, but I don’t think it *quite* captures me somehow.

Cheers!

18 05 2010
Tracy Rimjaw

Muhammad just told me your all a bunch of half wits.

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Puts us at least a quarter ahead of you then.

19 05 2010
Tracy Rimjaw

Simon has generic thought processes. Quip away.

19 05 2010
vivisection

what did he look like?

19 05 2010
Tracy Rimjaw

Don’t know, he was a caller using the National Security Hotline.

How does every racist joke start?

18 05 2010
SD

Can’t be bothered following the threads but Sam thanks for pointing out Turkey’s ban.

And James @21:13 re France’s position on many matters.

Vivisection, sorry to go on about this again but why are you dismissing Amir Taheri’s article? He is not American or Western as far as I can see. Muz has written about it badly but he has a point. This whole shtick of western liberals being sensitive to reactionary elements of other religions is getting quite tiresome. If people hadn’t fought for and legislated rights contrary to religious teachings and “choices”, I and many others would not have had the freedoms we enjoy today. I see a lot of people being on guard against even the slightest influence of the catholic church on any matter, to the point that they are the subject of mockery more often than not. Yet the churches of other religions must have a free pass?

18 05 2010
vivisection

I’m not dismissing his article. I was pointing out that Muzz published a link to an article, to prove his theory that the Hijab started in the 1970’s. The very link he published concluded with the quote about Amir Teheri’s work being shoddy.

I only raised this because I was amazed that someone would quote an article they didn’t finish reading. I raise this as a comment on informed analysis, as opposed to reading the beginning the start of the article and not having the courtesy to finish the author’s work before misconstruing it to meet your own ends.

18 05 2010
vivisection

apologies for the poor sentence construction in that second paragraph – I just re-read it , ughh – i hope you get the gist though.

18 05 2010
SD

Muz did post Taheri’s personal views at length. And then for some reason posted a rebuttal in Farroq’s views-which while admittedly very hilarious (really Muz smoking something strong?!) – doesn’t necessarily negate Taheri’s opinion or merit the final conclusion that he is shoddy. One could just as easily say for e.g. that Farooq’s article is the usual specious garbage where each person claims their interpretation to be true and that he is funded by a Muslim conservative body.

I guess the comment was purely on Muz’s poor reasoning, so all good.

18 05 2010
vivisection

Spot on. My comment was purely on the bizarre nature of Muzz’s misuse of the article, not a comment on the content of the article.

20 05 2010
Muz

FOF!

It was an accident.

While googling for the latter article that I’d read earlier I inadvertently cut and pasted the wrong article. (Trying to do to many things here at once.)

One last thing, cheers to James for engaging the arguments I put up and having a productive discussion. An intellectual to and fro well worth having. Jeers to Shirls and the other peanuts for the dismissive nature and snobbery displayed within their posts.

Oh, and heaven help some poor bastard that accidentally uses the wrong word here. (Irregardless. Stone me dead, guilty as charged.)

Regards

FOF!

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Muz, thanks for posting this, I have been slammed by some of the buttheads on here for being open about my mistakes and apologising. Mistakes happen.

If I am in the peanut group, it’s all good, I don’t actually agree with your point of view, but enjoyed the banter between you and james.

Have a good day!

20 05 2010
James

The same back to you Muz. Cheers indeed.

20 05 2010
Shirley M

By your own admission, you weren’t attempting to have an ‘intellectual to and fro’ with me Muz. You were attacking someone you don’t like.

18 05 2010
James

I do feel a little bad for old Paul. He has been in constant retreat, and every time we meet his insults with reasoned arguments, he moves on to some other (attempted) insult. Now he has resorted to claiming membership of some shadowy elite network as proof of his being elevated above the rest of us, when really his sad attempts at defending the bogan mindset have exposed him for what he really is. I bet he is a real estate agent.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I feel he’s taken the more traditional route of the proven wrong.

First, we saw name calling.

Then came the self-aggrandisement of his supposed accomplishments.

Last (and most certainly least), we were threatened with violence. A veritable “glassing”, if you will.

I’m afraid it was simply all too predictable.

And James, really, I expect better from you. A “Real Estate Agent”. A very low blow sir.

18 05 2010
James

I thought perhaps that is one he would understand – I was “taking it to the maxxtreme”, to use the vernacular.

18 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. A good point. I approve of you “going all maxxxtreme on his ass” and stand corrected.

Just so you know, this common enemy has merely brought about a cessation of hostilities between us. I’m sure you wouldn’t have it any other way… 🙂

18 05 2010
James

Naturally. My enemy’s enemy is my temporary friend.

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Sleeping with the Enemy?

18 05 2010
James Hunter

simon,
a brace of tens for that

18 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Thanks James, should we warn Fi to “protect” herself, you know with the problems with penicillin and all.

18 05 2010
James Hunter

Simon,
Yes indeed though ,Azithromycin plus Flagyl and maybe Retrovir should cover most things !

18 05 2010
vivisection

Used car sales?

18 05 2010
vivisection

Or worse, used luxury car sales – two year old beamers…some hail damage. Something Fiona probably forgot she had in the garage.

18 05 2010
James Hunter

Even worse :Imported used luxury cars. from HongKong where they drive in first gear most of the time so the auto trans tend to be par-boiled.

19 05 2010
common man

hit a nerve,,(uncommon for fi)would property manager sound better?

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

@ James You’re too nice. The dude has head jammed so far up is own arse that he breaths through his anus. So don’t feel bad, he was very rude to you. 😉

18 05 2010
James Hunter

James,
1 The GFC was caused by gready capitalists following the advice of uneducated economists.People for whom greed is their diety following people who have no knowledge of Matrix Theory nor the relavence of statistical outlanders.
2 Paul could not be a “real” Estate Agent , he would need personal skills even to be a “Real Estate Agent” !
Maybe a deceased estate agent? aka funeral director?

18 05 2010
James

That would well reflect his people skills, JH.

18 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi,
excuse the aliteration but maybe “Massive,Passive” income would have been more accurate and just a tinsy bit more annoying?

18 05 2010
Laura

0h, how I’ve missed this blog!! Been sooo flat out busy lately that I’m lagging way behind with the brilliance here at this hub for discourse on all things boganic. 😦 😦 😦

This latest is on the money, as usual. 😀

As a staunch, post-mod feminist, however, I have to say I’m not a fan of the burqa myself, though. But unlike the bogue aversion to it, my view stems from a genuine feminist principle, not just out of sheer prejudice and/or resentment at deprivation of seeing some skin.

Keep it up, TBL!! Excelleeeeent…

18 05 2010
James Hunter

well it’s “Big Dog” time so maybe Paulie will go beddy bys now?

18 05 2010
Peter

Oh, James Hunter, you’re a sleep engineer as well… Perhaps you’ll be headhunted by Capt Snooze to sell maxtreme-sized beds.

18 05 2010
chubbybloodfart

@ Benj. (forgive me, I have no “reply” function)
quoting Einstein from memory; “…mysticism is the sower of all true science. he who can not wonder and stand rapt in awe is as good as dead”
or words to that effect.
I, as others have expressed, was most surprised to hear you express faith in the context you have. I see you have addressed it at some length, but I am still baffled that you choose christianity. as an anglican I suspect you fell into it via tradition? you have said yourself that much of what constitutes christian lore doesn’t sit well with you, I wonder why you persist?
I agree with much you have said. I personally find quantum physics leads me more to consider something like the Tao. I find monotheism to be more insular, tribal, judgemental and fearful. the teachings of christ are almost an anomaly to their backdrop. In any case “By their fruits shall ye know them” for mine, weighed in the balance, monotheism has done and continues to do, more harm than good. doubtless there are many men of good will like yourself among those of the faith, but in the hands of peasants and bogans religon is a divisive and dangerous tool.
Ugh!
This is just too hard from a mobile phone… I feel like my hands are cut off.
I could go on and on.
such a pet topic

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

One day Chubby, I will be able to be as concise as you are! I get too caught up in the “But why’s” of it all!! LOL I think it’s because I really can’t understand in this day and age that we have religion at all. Except in history class, where it belongs.

19 05 2010
Benjamin

No worries re the reply.

“mysticism is the sower of all true science. he who can not wonder and stand rapt in awe is as good as dead”

Completely agree! I think we’re actually on the same page there.

Further I think it is just as awesome regardless of how you believe it came to be. The universe is a fantastic and beautiful place.

“I am still baffled that you choose christianity. as an anglican I suspect you fell into it via tradition?”

Well, my mother was originally Church of England, before I was old enough to be aware of it. While I was growing up we attended a variety of fundie/baptist-style churches (I don’t much like the beliefs of the fundies – you may have noticed). After that they (and I) stopped attending church for quite some time. I then went to a Catholic high school, though we weren’t regular church goers. So I’ve been around the block a bit, denominationally speaking.

As an adult, I’ve found that I’m simply more comfortable with the Anglicans (and the C of E people while I was in the UK). Where I am here they seem to be a bunch of freer thinkers (at least in the clergy), with different opinions. I like that. They tend to concentrate on the core, important stuff.

As for Christianity versus the others? Well, I was raised as a Christian, and I’ve found my place in that structure compatible with both my belief in God, my reasoning, and who I want to be. If I were growing up in a different family, I may have ended up elsewhere; that’s a fair thing to say. But then again, I’d be a different person entirely anyway 😉

“you have said yourself that much of what constitutes christian lore doesn’t sit well with you, I wonder why you persist?”

You answer this one yourself: “the teachings of christ are almost an anomaly to their backdrop”. Bingo! That pretty much covers it, for me.

“doubtless there are many men of good will like yourself among those of the faith, but in the hands of peasants and bogans religon is a divisive and dangerous tool.”

Spot on. TBL has already covered this – see Hillsong and Calvinism. I like to think that there are more that think like me than you believe, and that the noisy ones are stuffing it up for the rest of us. Just like the thousands (millions?) of peaceful folk of other faiths who end up tarnished because of nutjob extremists. It stinks.

19 05 2010
Whistling Nixie

@Benjamin: “see Hillsong and Calvinism”
…As in John Calvin, or as in Calvin Klein?

19 05 2010
Whistling Nixie

@chubbybloodfart: “This is just too hard from a mobile phone… I feel like my hands are cut off”
You’ve done pretty well then, considering. No tyypINg er rors either! Keep up the good work.

19 05 2010
common man

Watching four corners this week with the young english girl highlighted something,,,,the barbaric nature of muslim’s in general..a bit like lakemba and divide or conquer is their aim,imagine our home in 50 years without democracy like sharia partial or not..but tbl why havn’t you replied when the new series starts again..missing your political satire chas??

19 05 2010
Peter

Oh. James Hunter, you’re obviously an ardent follower of the all seeing, all knowing Guru Bagwash.

As for the rest of you proles, the world is just people. If you’ve come this far and still not adjusted to that, it’s a problem. And the problem is all yours.

19 05 2010
julia

steady on, is that islamist monitor thing taking the piss? i genuinely do not understand why they’re getting their collective knickers in a know over halal certification. surely halal certification of true blue ‘strayan icons will make it easier for muslims to participate in “our way of life”? grrrr i am so beyond the point where any of this makes sense.
anyone considering a mass exodus to new zealand?

19 05 2010
Tombarina

The good denizens of the Islamist Monitor are as serious as a maXXXXXtreme heart attack. They know a thing or two about those towel-headed heathens, and are determined to share their hard-won “knowledge” (oh, how loosely I use that word) for the betterment of all ‘Strayan society. Or, at least, the whitebread thicko portion of Strayan society.

What you and I clearly fail to appreciate is that one minute it’s Halal certification on US-owned Aussie icon Vegemite, and the next it’s a mosque on every corner, burquas all round, and three cheers for Achmed and his trusty camel Bruce.

Give those sand-dune-fancyin’ darkies an inch…..

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Canada here! Mr Pinky and I really want to go there and live. Fingers and Toes he gets transferred there for work! 😉

19 05 2010
James Hunter

My sister has been in Toronto for 18 years and is busting to get back away from the bad winters. She is counting days till her super will payout

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Agreed James.

It is harder to adjust to a different climate than you might think. SAD was a real problem for us when we were in the UK. I guess it just isn’t in our genes.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I love winter, I was an avid skier when I was young and fantastic. But now that I am old and still slightly fantastic I don’t ski anymore (start the violins) but would LOVE TOO. I certainly see where you are coming from, but as a mental health worker, it is my professional opinion that getting out of Australia is the way to go. Or France. I like their health care system 😉

The chances of Mr P!inky getting transferred to Canada – slight. One can dream though…

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Have you lived abroad? Wonderful if you can do it – probably doesn’t even matter where. It’s great for perspective.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Unfortunately no Benji. 😦 I was a young Mum and you know…BUT Mr Pinky and I are going OS as soon as our youngest has finished school. So I don’t mind. I guess that’s why I like to think that Mr Pinky will get sent OS and his job can pay 😉

I don’t actually want to get out of Australia, there are far worse of regions than ours (to state the obvious) I just get sick of the bogans. And yes I know there are “bogans” in all countries. But I figure that they will be more “quaint” and “exotic” and wont shit me as much. 🙂

20 05 2010
julia

I understand what you mean about there being worse places. Australia has such a ridiculously high quality of life that (to use a cliche) is taken for granted. The provision of fresh, good, cheap food, being outdoors all the time, sunshine even in winter, wide streets, trees (even in the cities)… I’m in the UK. Today, I ate my lunch outside (on the grass! under trees that had leaves!) for the first time since August, and it was incredibly novel. In Australia it was just a facet of everyday life.

And yes, you’re right, bogans aplenty abroad 😉
but, speaking from a UK point of view, there’s also a lot more tolerance here for intelligent thought, and “cultcha”, and even amongst people my age (17-18), reading books and taking an interest in current events is encouraged, not denigrated. I would imagine that, in the same demographic at least, it would be the same in other countries too. I think part of Australia’s problem is that there’s not really much of a theatre/arts/literature scene outside of one or two cities, so people get their kicks from celebrities/sport/insipid TV shows instead, and on it goes…

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Hi Julia,

We do take the good life for granted here, as the bogan’s often show us. They are like a petulant child who wants to keep his lollies and have a share of everyone elses.

I think the UK chav maybe less anti-intellectual because the UK has a long history. As you know there are bulidings in the UK older that Settled Australia. The Auzzie Bogan hasn’t quiet asw highly evolved as the UK Chav and therefore the bogan is even lower on the genetic scale 😉

It’s good to here that the kids are into reading and discussions, awesome! In my age bracket the (30 – 35yrs) we haven’t grown up with the internet, hell we didn’t even have it at school when I was in year 12, let alone have it on tap at home. Where as your age group has had it for most of your lives. We have always (well my friends anyway) swapped books, discussed them, etc etc; I imagine that when you were at school in Australia, you would have emailed, MSN et al; web pages etc;

What I am trying to say really is, that with the higher access to information, your age group is more likely to be enlightened (for want of better word) at a younger age.

I hope this makes sense..Clearly I need coffee stat!

Australia has so many great minds that can be studied etc; but they have no hope against the plastic world Hollywood and it maxxxtreme trashiness!

19 05 2010
Whistling Nixie

@julia: “anyone considering a mass exodus to new zealand?”
Not unless I experience significant wait gain beforehand. I’d go back to New Zealand (first preference Wellington, an elongated, earthquake-prone city with trolleybuses) if it weren’t for my American-based wife’s health problems probably keeping her out of NZ or Aus. Instead, I’ll probably have to move where she is (Seattle, another elongated, earthquake-prone city with trolleybuses).

19 05 2010
martin the bogan

Are there many Muslims in the Inner West of Sydney amongst all the libtards? Would the citizens of the Inner West object to the Inner West becoming something like Lakemba?

I am anti immigration myself, mostly from a numbers point of view. I don’t like the Burqa at all, I think it’s anti-social. I did have a Muslim friend at school on the northern beaches, he was a top bloke, he ended up in an arranged marriage, she didn’t wear a burqa as far as I know. However I don’t think Islam is compatible with western societies so I’d like to keep their numbers to a minimum. Then again I don’t think any religion is compatible with society period. If that makes me a bastard and a bogan so be it. 😀 We’ve got enough nutjob “Christians” to deal with as it is.

However I do find Muslim bashing in general to be pathetic. *We* are stealing *their* oil after all. We’re the bad guys. But I don’t think it’s “racist” for people to want to preserve their societies. That includes white people.

19 05 2010
vivisection

Conveniently ignoring the fact that all of western societies “greatest achievements” come from the East, in particular Islam – as mentioned earlier, Universities, Mathematics ( Algebra and geometry), chemistry and physics, , music (even the medieval Lute was from the east), poetry, architecture, literature (it was the Islamic scholars that translated the classics from Greek to Arabic and then to Latin – including works on democracy) and I could go on.

During the Dark Ages, Islam moved into Spain and the the west finally moved forward as a direct result of this influence.
So Martin, what are we preserving as “our society”. The fundamental ideas and understandings of the world that we took from them in the first place?

19 05 2010
common man

if the east did achive those feats why did they live like its still the dark ages?

19 05 2010
James Hunter

cm, because the religious nutters have taken over or more accurately the power hungry theocracy who dress there ambitions in the name of religion

19 05 2010
vivisection

Been there and seen that have you?

19 05 2010
vivisection

Above comment was at was at CM, not JH

19 05 2010
common man

not yet vivi im applying for a blackwater job though lol!!

19 05 2010
vivisection

CM, it could be argued that the War against Terror, which we are a part of of is a continuation of the Crusades. American soldiers are using rifle sights with biblical inscriptions etched into the lens. Not much further along from the Dark Ages ourselves in many ways.

19 05 2010
James Hunter

Viv,
Of course we are; we can kill a lot more heathens per day then King Arthur could !

19 05 2010
Benjamin

“American soldiers are using rifle sights with biblical inscriptions etched into the lens”

!!!!!!!!

How the frick can they justify that?

19 05 2010
James Hunter

It was done by the manufacturer with out telling the us defence procurement according to a comment in a recent “Defence Australia”

19 05 2010
Benjamin

!!!!!!!

I really have no words. Besides “I really have no words”.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

by using God, they honestly believe what they are doing is right, while the rest of us are repulsed.

19 05 2010
martin

Vivisection: We would be preserving the current state of society instead of taking what I consider a dangerous turn towards this “Big Australia” which could end up impoverishing us.

I am aware that the Islamic people were more civilised during the Middle Ages, I don’t think that matters. What matters is now.

19 05 2010
martin

Even if it doesn’t impoverish us I simply like Australia the way it is. Things don’t always have to adhere to some grand ideal.

19 05 2010
vivisection

I do think their is a lot of irrational fear that our society is going to be drastically changed by immigration. And fear that this change will be for the worse. I live in Brunswick, in probably the most densely arabic/muslim populated area of Melbourne. I’ve been in the area for 6 years and have experienced nothing by tolerance and a great variety of food. Yes i see women wearing Burqa occasionally and there a cafes full of of men toking on Shiish and there is even a halal McDonalds. Generally speaking, the people in the local shops are respectful, courteous and happy to give answer to my sometimes dumb questions about what I am buying. I’ve never been threatened, never been discriminated against and only ever seen violence perpetrated by White Anglo men outside The Hustler Strip Club. There is a mosque a few doors down the road that i occasionally hear music from, but that doesn’t bother me anymore than the local Greek Orthodox Church.

I personally think that we have more to gain than we have to lose when we allow these communities to join us.

19 05 2010
Sam

Years ago a lot of English were concerned and fearful that too much immigration would change their country for the worse.

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

@ Viv
I am of french heritage and my family is very proud of that! We have been in Australia (on my maternal side) since the settlement of Port Arthur. On my father’s side we’re “fresh off the boat.” I wonder if these anti-immigration peanuts would be afraid of my bi-lingual grandma whose nearly 85?

Without immigrants Australia would be dull and archaic. Different cultures bring some really beautiful things, like cheese and wine…

I think really the anti-immigration lobby have moved on from the “wogs” & “nips” and moved onto the “towel heads”. They don’t want to block ALL immigrants just the ones who they’re scared of.

20 05 2010
vivisection

well said, I agree heartily Pinky! No-one bats an eyelid at an Italian anymore, whereas once they faced the same crap thrown at migrants from the middle east, and India these days.

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

My theory is that the bogan hasn’t evolved psychological since White Settlement. It’s only a theory but so far so good 😉

19 05 2010
SD

Vivisection, with respect, that reasoning is as suspect as the popular opinion in Asia that the Middle east was full of ignorant nomads who borrowed from India and China and merely served as a conduit of ideas to the West. Furthermore, interpretations of history are fluid and the Dark Ages are no longer perceived as Dark.

Let’s leave history alone shall we, faded empires of all stripes tend to exaggerate their contributions.

Also, American soldiers using rifle sights with biblical inscriptions – unfortunately this kind of stuff seems consistent with the rumourmongering that goes hand in hand with warmongering. Also please don’t provide me a link that it’s all true cos I have seen enough forwards from both sides.

19 05 2010
vivisection

SD, I agree that history is often skewed, subjective and used to serve many and often cross purposes. I fail to see why acknowledging influence should be perceived as a negative? My point is not to extol the virtues of Islam, it simply to get the reader to question the cultural position they are commenting from. Yes cultural contributions may have been exaggerated, but that does not make them irrelevant.

For a person living in “western” culture to assume cultural superiority without some understanding of their own history and understanding how their own culture developed is ignorant. Ignorance, just like selectively choosing history that suits, does not help any open discussion.

The issue of American rifle sights was only raised as an example of how any culture can be seen as living in the dark ages. I could mention the mother in Tasmania who pimped her 12 year old daughter out to strangers in a hotel room. It makes the same point – in response CM’s comment on “if they are so great , why do they live in the dark ages” .

19 05 2010
SD

Thanks for the reply, vivisection. Your post on medieval Islam came across as very emphatic on the influence of Islam though obviously it is nuanced. I quite agree that cultures have various aspects, certainly the popular thinking on the modern Middle East as barbaric and full of inequities is wrong.

That Tasmania story did make me think, when does this get on TBL?!

19 05 2010
brad

Oh and then us ludites went and pursued such things like world wide navigation,democracy,industrialisation,ect-true they kept the torch of knowledge alight during their reign but it was just a by-product of what they had conquered,the Arab and Turkic cultures were nothing but glorified slave traders.Still are.

19 05 2010
Sam

But…what have they done for us lately?

19 05 2010
James Hunter

James,
Is any modern political thought ,realist ?

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I wouldn’t think so JH. Seems that it would be an oxymoron.

19 05 2010
James

The major (and correct, IMHO) theory of international relations is called realism. It implies no value judgment, or that it is better adjusted to reality than other theories. It does serve as the underlying basis of the foreign policy behaviour of most states (if they are honest with themselves). That is the realism I am talking about, not realism in the more colloquial sense, as in well adjusted to reality. In that sense, it would be an oxymoron.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

James, I have no idea when it comes international relations…shit my mind just exploded reading that 😉 I wasn’t having a go at you, I was just laughing at JH and thinking of Hollowmen… 😀

19 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi,
don worry , be happy… I too think your smart !

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Good Lord, that’s worse. 😦

19 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi,
“to fall in love with oneself is often the start of a lifelong relationship ” ( Oscar Wilde ) .
Somertimes I think your smitten !
But I still love you like you are.

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Indeed. I’m sure it will prove to be the love affair of my life. 🙂

19 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi ,
I know how you feel. It is so hard to find people that recognise or appreciate spontaneous wit.

Have a great day Mrs JH and I are of to Sydney to see Coppelia.

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Not to mention beauty, wealth, talent, class, privilege, intelligence and above all else, modesty.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

modesty…I never want you to be that!! 😉

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Well, maybe a touch of Modesty Blaise. 😉

20 05 2010
big_baggies

Amazing all this talk on history and cultural contributions and you are adding nothing with all your education ?

20 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I am just enjoying watching you stalk me all over the page. 🙂

20 05 2010
James

Funnily enough, if the stalking was effective, b_b would be able to see some of your references.

20 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. The issue is more probably in the understanding than the seeing.

20 05 2010
James

I stand corrected. For once.

20 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. … today.

19 05 2010
Peter

Oh, James Hunter. You? I like. vivisection? Not so much. Fi? if only she was real…

19 05 2010
vivisection

Lucky you James Hunter – validation from one of our greatest thinkers…

20 05 2010
James Hunter

Viv,
Just back: re your above comment
I am overwhealmed !

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Don’t you mean UNDER whelmed JH?

20 05 2010
James Hunter

Pinky,
You are correct of course, I did ponder but swayed to injecting a bit of satire into my response.

21 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I see that now, I don’t do subtly very well. 😉 Love ya work JH!

19 05 2010
francdux

James Hunter, your pseudo-intellectual knobbery knows no bounds. Thanks for para-phrasing- realism, it was very enlightening. The short course you attended on political theory is finally coming in handy.

The witty banter with Fiona and your inspirational wisdom, obviously learned from a remarkable life, are greatly appreciated by all. I’m sure your sister in Toronto, busting to get back away from the bad winters over there, would be equally impressed.

19 05 2010
James

I second that remark. This place would be far poorer, were you ever to leave JH.

19 05 2010
Belinda

Indeed, James.

I totally put you up there too James and a few others specially Fiona.

I love everyone’s take on things like this and it’s good to be able to share your beliefs without being shit on, although a few here are trying to use a virtual toilet.

Well done TBL, you just keep thoroughly entertaining me.

This site is a gem!

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Don’t forget Chubby, Edna, Tomberina, Viv, Shirl M, SD, Benji, etc etc I wouldn’t come here if they all left as well as those mentioned above. 😀 Best Blog SITE EVER

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

And Simon Glasser at Arms, and fiona from balwyn, and Will S. ooh who else?

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. *ahem*!

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Er – you were already mentioned by Belinda.

Pay attention!

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I wish to be mentioned again!

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Hey folks, don’t forget about Fiona!

There you go, Fi. Enjoy.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Sorry Fi, I figured Belinda mentioned you, so I wouldn’t have to, but, you being you, I shall do it now…
*Ahem*

And lets never forget our favourite Lady from the Ancestral Estates in Toorak, FIONA FROM TOORAK!!!

YAY

😉

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Why can I here “Shiny Happy People” playing in my head. Kinda unnerving. And I hate that song 😉

19 05 2010
Shirley M

Why did you have to say that Benji? After we bonded over Bill and Ted? I forbid you to hate that song. Besides, I’m pretty sure somewhere in the middle of the Bible it says it’s a sin to hate it. 😉

19 05 2010
Benjamin

Ahhh. There it is. Page 1021.

“Truly I tell you; Those who hate Shiny Happy People shall be cast into the pit, yea, even to be made to listen to Minogue, and there shalt be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

Oh dear.

19 05 2010
Shirley M

hahahahahahaha!

19 05 2010
Benjamin

It’s “hear” damnit, not “here”.

Ugh. Twice in one day.

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Sten, Sten II, They are awesome contributors too!

Sorry so late with the mention!! 😀

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Although our spelling score on the NAPLAN test would improve.

20 05 2010
James Hunter

Fi was that a typo?
Surley Napalm is more appropo ?

19 05 2010
Belinda

I might also add that for all it counts I tend to wholeheartedly share your opinions on the not banning of the burka, James.

19 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Um James, I think francdux was being sarcastic. But I agree with your sentiment, well said.

19 05 2010
Sam

It seems the other posters are all so high on a sense of importance that they can’t even realise when someone takes the piss out of them!

LOL!

19 05 2010
Belinda

A few pages ago, I saw a few comments for 141.. Suiting up.

Now I see 141 but when I click the link it tells me I am searching for something that isn’t there.

I had to wonder if I wasn’t going cuckoo!

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. I think the TBL boys were suffering from premature postulation… I’m sure we’ll see it again on the morrow.

19 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

I’m guessing a photo of a young Bogue at the races with board shorts and Tuxedo top?

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Worse. A group shot of Ed Hardy wearers who’d “suited up” for the day (Melbourne Cup?), one of whom was wearing a lime green bespoke suit. At least I hope it was bespoke, I’d hate to think more than one of them was made.

19 05 2010
Shirley M

Might have been a court appearance.

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. Yes, perhaps the caption will read “the defendants”?

19 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Maybe Bob Geldof was finished with it. The suit I mean.

19 05 2010
Fiona of Toorak

LOL. It wasn’t THAT bad…

19 05 2010
vivisection

Hopefully someone with a suit and tie T-shirt

19 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

And gumboots apparently.

19 05 2010
vivisection

Are Kangaroo shoes too much to hope for? Hot Pink Floral Farkin plastic Gumboots are more likely though

19 05 2010
Peter

vivisection, based on that comment you are now acquitted on the basis of no capacity.

19 05 2010
vivisection

oh hilarious- homework finished?

19 05 2010
Simon - Glasser at Arms

Kapow, Viv struck with a limp lettuce leaf.

19 05 2010
vivisection

Who can be bothered ?? Wit would be wasted.

19 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Indeed Viv. Indeed.

20 05 2010
James Hunter

dim ly

19 05 2010
chubbybloodfart

@Benj.
’round our way, we like to discuss these things around a campfire after some tall bhang lassies and a game of Go. You would be most welcome to participate. We could modify it to beer and backgammon if you would prefer. Or tea and rummy, if you spent that long with the UK CofE. I hope you umderstand this in the spirit it is intended. 🙂
as long as you understand also that I will continue to vigorously debate you!
I admire your eloquence and defer to your experience. May you continue to expand it.

@p!nky: you can come too! edna makes a mean lassie! You sell yrself short, we love your work.

20 05 2010
Benjamin

Likewise. Sounds cool.

Here’s cheers, b’gears! *burp*

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I’m SO THERE CHUBBY!! How do you feel about kids? 😉 I don’t drink beer because I’m not aussie enough, but Mr Pinky and I certainly enjoy a gin and tonic, long discussions, and campfires.

I’m a bit of a nerd, how do you feel about discussing the pro’s and con’s of polypharamacy in the mental health setting? 😉

WOO HOO, I’ll start packing!

20 05 2010
Edna Focke-Witte

@ P!nky.
re: your earlier comments about this blog,
I love it here too, my husband got me into it and I’m hooked! I had never been involved in fora or blogs or whatever, and I still only visit this one blog. There are some fine commenters here, I never fail to get a laugh and the whole thing feels like sitting around the Algonquin Hotel with old Dot Parker and the gang, swapping Bon Mots over absinthe and martinis.
Don’t go changing, Beautiful People.

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Edna,
I only visit a few blog sites/forums, mainly nerdy medical ones. My other tab that is always open is the AFA forum, there are contributors on there that are just so lovely, you want to hug them, not in a creepy way of course. I know it’s difficult for you guys at the moment, but when you can, jump on and have a look. You’ll be able to guess who I am!

Don’t change Edna, I am your apprentice 😉

20 05 2010
Brett

never mind “Kill the infidels wherever you find them” and that those who don’t worship allah will be tortured forever, islam is a religion of love peace and tolerance. derp. silly bogans.

20 05 2010
Brett

seriously though TBL, shame on you. The fact that you use the Qu’ran, rather than just Islam/Muslims is just a convenient way for you to defend islam.
Supporters of Islam pose an undeniable threat to freedom and western values (e.g. physically attacking someone over a DRAWING [watch?v=1fg8KRTXDRU]). However, if you claim to be defending the QU’RAN, then you can simply rationalise these actions as being “untrue to the message of the qu’ran”, which despite being a load of crap, is not even important, because “bogans” (handy marginalisation btw) aren’t saying “oh look the qu’ran is so bad!”, they’re saying that many of those who claim to be muslim and who support Islam are being incredibly intolerant, violent and hateful.
whilst “bogans” are worried about the observed actions of a large number of people in the same collective, you can simply dismiss this by claiming to defend the qu’ran, as if this actually changes the reality about the actions of its supporters.
I also find it funny how those who that the qu’ran shows that islam is a religion of peace. If this is the case, why aren’t extremists extremely peaceful? The bible is just as much about peace as the qu’ran, and you yet you don’t see christian extremists calling for the death of “infidels” as you do in islam. Given that muslims tend to be of non-white races, you’re not being racists now, are you TBL?

Thank you, Brett, for making our point more effectively and succinctly than we ever could. TBL

20 05 2010
vivisection

Brett, don’t forget “God Hates Fags” and its fine to blow up abortion clinics in the name of Christ. Go the Westboro Baptist Church website – link below – and think about your statement:

“The bible is just as much about peace as the qu’ran, and you yet you don’t see christian extremists calling for the death of “infidels” as you do in islam.”

http://www.godhatesfags.com/

20 05 2010
Shirley M

Holy crap (quite literally). I had a look at god hates fags. There’s a ‘Dear Shirley’ section, where Shirley says horrible, hateful things, and not just about ‘fags’. I SWEAR it’s not me. I SWEAR it!

20 05 2010
vivisection

Confronting isn’t it? And i’m asking YOU Dear Shirley!

20 05 2010
vivisection

Dear Shirley? What should one wear to an abortion clinic protest? Is a lace neckline inappropriate?

20 05 2010
Shirley M

Dear Vivisection,
Thank you for your letter. First of all, it pleases me that a young christian such as yourself is out fighting the good war. To answer your question, a lace neckline would be appropriate providing it tickles your chin and the protest is not being held before noon. The flouncing of lace before noon is sinful, and only fitting for unchaste sluts. Should you disregard this advice, you will not only be cast into the pit of hell for all eternity, but will very likely be requiring the services of the abortion clinic you will be fighting to close down in the near future.

May The Lord be with you, child.

Love Shirley.

P.S. Don’t get so caught up in fighting those pro-choice hussies that you forget to hate fags.

21 05 2010
vivisection

Dear Shirley,

Thank you for your prompt and response and pious leadership. To be safe,I have decided to avoid the lace neckline altogether. I don’t want to be seen as “asking for it”. Nor do I want people thinking I am associated with that left wing, lunatic, Jezebel, Judge Judy.

Have no fear Dear Shirley, I will continue the good work against those pro-choice trollops, at least until they find a cure for the fags. I expect then, Jesus will want us to exterminate those perverts out of existence, preferably before 32 weeks of course.

Jesus Loves You, He Told Me So.

Vivisection

20 05 2010
Shirley M

Confronting isn’t the word. Sickening is closer. The hypocrisy!
I might start my own site ‘Shirley Hates Haters’.

20 05 2010
vivisection

I’d like a “Vivisection Says” page, if i may? People can ask a question, and i’ll tell them what to do or where to go. Our way or the highway – bogues need not apply! I think I’d be good.

20 05 2010
Shirley M

It shall be yours, Viv. You’d be better than good. You’d be brilliant.

20 05 2010
Shirley M

Grr. I answered your question Viv but I’m stuck in moderation. Not sure which word/s is/are the offending ones.

20 05 2010
Shirley M

Speaking of being stuck in moderation, I left some comments on our dear friend Peter’s blog, whom, as you know, I love, and they have been stuck in moderation for about a week now. And I didn’t even use any cuss words.

What a surprise.

20 05 2010
Tombarina

Viv, that website has left me gobsmacked.

I’ve just been watching True Blood (I know, I know – but it’s hot and I love it and I wish I was called Sookie and my Beloved had a Deep South accent) and we were taking the pi$$ at the pig-ignorant “God hates fangs” thing.

Then I clicked on your link. I can’t speak for *insert deity here*’s likes and dislikes, but I can assure you that Tombarina hates pretty much everyone ever associated with that filthy, hate-drenched site. And the sheer self-righteous arrogance of it makes me want to either vomit or crack out a high-powered weapon.

20 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Westboro Baptist Church makes me even more proud of being an Atheist. I’ve only seen the Louis Theroux Doco and that was enough for me. They are a oxygen wasters.

21 05 2010
brad

Pink these nutjobs are not people of spirit or faith more likely they are Atheists themselves who hav’nt developed the psyche too be rational loving people so they’re scared and empty which is why they jump onto things like extreme Religion.But dont equate all religious people with these scoundrals(i know you wouldnt cause you have a brain).Not everyone can be rationalists some people just see,feel,know-you either do or dont.I actually feel sorry for you.

21 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

You feel sorry for me? Why?

23 05 2010
Will S

Haha, “I don’t like them so they must actually be atheists”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

23 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Oh brad,
You really need an education in Atheism. We are lovely people, we don’t do things because a book that was written 2000 years tells us too, we do it because we want to, and know that it would be the right thing to do. I don’t have to ask a priest for forgivness, I just have to ask the person I have wronged. Please don’t try and have an argument with me about this, I will win.

You don’t have to feel sorry for me, I am happily married, with a family, loads of friends, and I am still willing to learn.

I dare you to email WBC and tell them their atheist.

24 05 2010
Sam

“Please don’t try and have an argument with me about this, I will win.”

followed by

“and I am still willing to learn.”

You are a case study in doublethink.

In your small head you win every argument because your mind doesnt allow alternative opinions to be aired. Your chief argument winners – bigot, ignorant, racist, etc – trumps all alternative arguments and wins every battle for you inside your head.

Keep up the good work.

21 05 2010
Sam

Get real guys.

You reckon most Muslims would lend you a shoulder to cry on about these issues?

Next.

21 05 2010
vivisection

Sam, That wasn’t the point of posting it. The point was repudiating the statement that extremist Christians don’t call for killing. This is just one of many websites that prove they do. At the same time, I certainly wouldn’t judge all Christians against the “thoughts” of these lunatics.

Your statement is a fine example of the logic that “Just because Muslims would , it’s ok that Christians can too”.

21 05 2010
jim

true but you havnt heard of many extremist christian suicide bombers have you!

22 05 2010
vivisection

No they aren’t that considerate

23 05 2010
Josh

No but I know of some extremist Christians. The IRA and the UDL for starters. They were both happy to blow up people they disapproved of.

23 05 2010
Sam

Many embassies being burnt down over a cartoon of Jesus in recent years? Has the Pope been issuing death fatawas on critics of Catholocism again?

I think we have a clear front runner in the most offensive, least tolerant religion race.

23 05 2010
vivisection

That was called the inquisition. Prior to that, the crusades.

24 05 2010
Sam

when were they again?

24 05 2010
James

I seem to have missed your point Sam. What do you mean to say? If it is that religion is bad, point taken. How does this extend to a discussion of ignorant people commenting on subjects they know very little abou… Oh, now I get it.

24 05 2010
vivisection

Oh, you want recent offensiveness. How about the 450 cases of child sex abuse by church clergy and employees that were reported and acknowledged by the courts between 1990 and 2000 in Australia. What’s being done about that again? They seem to tolerate that quite well.

23 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Sam,

Again your ignorance astounds me. The pope still hasn’t “approved” contraception, there for many devout Catholics aren’t able to make a choice about family size.

All religions are shit. They tear families, friends and nations apart. Not just the Muslims.

Please grow a brain.

23 05 2010
James Hunter

Pinky,
Brad ans Sam should concider “Any preoccupation with ideas of what is right or wrong in conduct shows an arrested intellectual development” ( Oscar Wilde)
To my mind the same thing applies in spade to comparative religion,in which i include the choice of thinkjing people,like you and i, of atheism.
Like you i believe that running ones life on the suggestions of a folk tale is gross stupidity. evolution has given us a superior intellect , so we all should use it. The “god” botherers should wonder what the diety of their choice would have them use their intellects for? following blindly some parable bose not require intelligence, more aptly it thrives where there is ignorance.
Pinky, keep up the good work, If ultimately we are to be judged by dome “god person” then let us be judged as our fellow men judge us , by our actions.

23 05 2010
brad

Did i say i was part of any religious movement -no.The point i was making was that you dont have too follow any religious doctrine too believe in god/the metaphysical/whatever .You people seem to pushing towards a black and white veiwpoint,ie;Atheist=rational mind/intelligent/strong minded. Deity believer= irrational/low intelligence/easily manipulated-weak minded.I can tell you i have formed mt beliefs over my lifetime,not because of what i have been told or sold but because of what i have seen,felt and experienced.I consider myself too be very rational i question everything.This is why i feel sorry for atheists you are quite smug in your take on existence,and dont mind belittling those who know it diffrently.Pride before a fall.

23 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

JH, Thank you. **Blushes**

23 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

I never asked whether or not you were religious or not. I never said that people of faith were weak minded. Your grandiose assumptions are the reason why I enjoy enjoy the company of rational people (both religious or not). You know nothing of the atheist movement, you accuse me of things I have never done. I am compassionate and willing to have a discussion of my beliefs with those who are willing to have rational discussion not those who argue on assumption. I have what is called evidence, if you see that is being smug, that is not my problem. I am very well versed in religious doctrine and that of scientific reasoning. So it is not pride that I have my dear boy, but facts.

24 05 2010
Sam

Pinky,

Again you ignorance astounds me.

I agree that religions suck, all of them.

I agree with all that has been said about the problems that Christianity has caused and is still causing.

Go on and say something bad about Islam. Come on…I dare you, anything you like. Why are you scared to mock Islam, but it is open season on the others?

Islam is one of your “protected species topics” because Muslims are a down trodded minority isn’t that true? They can do no wrong. Anyone saying anything bad about any minority gets your standard response (bigot, racist, ignorant, etc).

People like you are destroying freedom of speech and open debate with your closed mind is impossible.

Please grow a brain.

21 05 2010
Brett

-I’m WELL aware of the WBC. That’s a SINGLE church.
There were more people in the protests the followed the publishing of the “Muhammad cartoon” than there are people at that chruch. The abortion clinic bombing, although horrendous, was a single incident and I have not seen it happen since. The vast majority of Christians disapprove of the WBC, whereas we have seen repeatedly the widespread support for militant islam. In short: Christianity is not a threat, islam IS.
-When I said the bible is just as much about peace as the qu’ran, you have to notice that I said the idea of the qu’ran being about peace is bullshit. They’re as bad as each other (I would say the qu’ran is worse in some spots). For the record, I’m an atheist and am against all religions (not the right to be religious, though.)

-TBL, thank you for once again showing yourselves to be a bunch of unthinking cunts.

Good for you Brett. None of that made any sense. TBL

3 07 2010
Lucius

The Westboro Baptist Church Effect: A Case Study

One of the defining traits of the inner-city elitist hipster douchebag is the all-consuming blend of rage and disdain that wells up whenever it becomes apparent that the mass-media is again having its way with the asinine bogan. The monolith of misinformation at fault is commonly termed the ‘trashmedia kraken’ (the bogan, having little or no knowledge of Norwegian folklore, is confused by this moniker, which enhances its comic value).

The inner-city elitist hipster douchebag abhors the trashmedia’s ‘turn on, tune in, fill up’ approach to information dissemination, and is staunchly critical of its distilled, sensationalized content. As the inner-city elitist hipster douchebag has rightly averred, the trashmedia has honed bogan-baiting to a fine art. Yet its aptitude in this field has never succeeded in ensnaring the inner-city elitist hipster douchebag. Or has it?

Following the death of Heath Ledger in early 2008 (beloved for his intimate portrayal of what life is like for god’s ‘whoopsies’ cases, but despised for his heroic depiction of a bogan icon), the Westboro Baptist Church sympathetically offered its services to a grieving nation. Aware that there was some confusion in Australia over what specifically caused Ledger’s death, they felt it their duty to inform the public that, contrary to reports of an unintentional, self-inflicted overdose, this was the work of no man. It was in fact the divine plan in action. For the crime of pretending to be a homosexual, god pulled out the ol’ smiting stick and bumped off our Heath! As this pertained to the beloved side of Ledger, inner-city indignation was palpable.

Pastor-cum-patriarch Fred Phelps founded the Westboro Baptist Church in 1955. Ignorant bigoted Americans immediately identified with the church’s rabid anti-homosexual doctrines, and attendance promptly ballooned: today it comprises both Phelps’ extended family and a handful of sad social outcasts that suctioned on along the way. Public exposure is its life-blood. This irksome gnat of an organization ranks slightly lower than a stain upon civilization, and must command constant attention to sustain itself. Like any impuissant extremist ravenously clawing about for the next opportunity to incite outrage, the Westboro Baptist Church should be ignored. With its commendable pacifist creed, the church poses no substantive threat. Comparatively, the Islamic Republic of Iran is estimated to have executed in upwards of 4000 homosexuals since 1979*. However, it seems prudent to refrain from pursuing these atrocities too vigorously, as that would likely entail straying perilously close to Ill-Informed Analysis of the Qu’ran (sic – oh lol I get it).

In its unending quest for universal cross-cultural moral equivalency, the inner-city elitist hipster douchebag unconsciously draws dubious parallels between loudmouth hatemongers and demented homo-cidal clerics (to say nothing of their acolytes). The impotence of the Westboro Baptist Church appears inconsequential to the inner-city elitist hipster douchebag, who (straight-faced) equates vile pejorative rhetoric with searing hot-blooded murder.

Various studies have shown that noisy pacifist bigots are actually 26.7% easier to ignore than less conspicuous (read: foreign) violent bigots (largely because noisy pacifist bigots mostly leave one with the option of ignoring them, whereas violent bigots give their victims little choice). But the inner-city elitist hipster douchebag, fanned by a trashmedia kraken all too eager to ‘engage the rage’, cannot abide. In 2009 the media once more gleefully and utterly unnecessarily aired Mr Phelps offering his valuable insights to a transfixed Australian public. Mr Phelps wished to outline his latest, rather unimaginative theory; surmising that the Victorian Bushfires signaled god’s continued disapproval with the (His?) Australian people. With piercing lucidity, Phelps reasoned that Australia was the “land of the sodomite”, and thus deserving of god’s fiery wrath** (had he substituted boganite for sodomite, the inner-city elitist hipster douchebag may have been less repelled by his diatribe).

The incensed inner-city elitist hipster douchebag had seen enough. It filed away these boisterous bigots, intent on citing them any time anyone suggested, implied or gave the indication of thinking to themselves that the West/Christians were not every bit as nasty, prejudiced, inane and deranged as the more exotic candidates for the world’s Worst of the Worst shortlist.

And who knows? They may be right.

**http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexuality.htm

***http://www.b105.com.au/entertainment/the_dirt//blog/sinful-australians-caused-victorian-bushfires-controversial-pastor-fred-phelps-of-westboro-baptist-church-claims/20090219-2ssf.html

20 05 2010
James Hunter

Brett,
Some of the old testament is not all that much about peace or forgivness. Sugest you read it.
Also remember ,not so long ago ;the inquisition
also for todays iteration of right wing christian radicals look to the KKK.

20 05 2010
PD

Where I live there is a woman, possibly a bogan, who was born and raised in Australia from Western European stock who has married a Muslim man and loves to get around the food court at the plaza in her burqa. It’s funny because you can see her eyes darting around frantically looking for attention then settling into a self-satisfied smugness when someone looks for more than a second.

21 05 2010
Sam

And then she tucks into her sweet and sour pork with special fried rice?

21 05 2010
James

Someone put something in Fiona of Toorak’s hands to stop her typing *unzips pants*

23 05 2010
James Hunter

Pinky,
brad @15.21.01 ; well Pinky here again we have a clear demonstration of the dangers of religeon. It destroys the brain !!!Obsfucates, cognition, sounds more highbrow but the end result is the same.A narrow outlook and an inability to think for themselves.
Pity some were probably nice smart people befor the churches and their masters got to them.

23 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

JH, young brad confuses me. My response was to his accusation that I think religious people are weat etc; I never said this. He also called me smug, which shits me. I’m a lot of things but I’m never smug.

23 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

**weak not weat

23 05 2010
brad

Pinky i didnt say you in particular said that religious people are weak or that you are smug(if you were smug you would call yourself “Pinky-Master of The Universe”), i just implied that some people on this blog who profess too be Atheists cant help but put their puny 2 cents in about how it obviously makes them smarter.No one can ever win this argument you can never prove beyond any doubt that their is no god/afterlife,ect and i can never prove that there is,i understand your veiw on existance and and accept it with out prejudice,i know it would make a better world if people just bunked religion,but spirituality is a very important and real part of peoples lives so you just have to accept it.unfortunatly some can’t

23 05 2010
P!nky Has A Bra!n

Brad,

I’d love to be a Master of The Universe..;) Can I be Ram-man?

I accept that people want/need spirituality. I just don’t accept people talking about Atheism without prior knowledge, assumptions annoy me and I am likely to bare my intellectual teeth at those, who especially, assume what I think.

In my opinion, and not to cause an argument, spirituality is an insult, as is God, to the wonder that is natural science. Science in all its forms are real. It can be tested (scientology is clearly not apart of this statement) and re-tested and re-thought. Spirituality still requires what I have not, faith. I’m sure some “believe” there is a God/s. But how can it be tested? Where is the evidence? In faith? I can show you how animals have evolved, I can show you how theories have failed and led to an even more remarkable discoveries.

The major difference between the religious and rationalists is that rationalist, WANT to be proven wrong, and can admit it when they are.

24 05 2010
Sam

As you are so sure and intellectual (lol) and scientifc and all that, perhaps you should send your theories on the formation of the universe (i.e. what happened before the big bang) to Steve Hawking. He has been stumped on that one for years. You’ve obviously got it covered though.

24 05 2010
James Hunter

Sam,
enlighten us all by explaining what you believe, if you can that is.

23 05 2010
James Hunter

Brad,
what ever hokus pokus or bunkum people choose to believe is very much their own affair but the moment they start to prolitiseand and try to interfere with the rights and actions of others then they have become a danger to themselves and society.
The Roman Catholic Church and the pope have the most attrocious record in this respect as do the ratbag elements of lots of other churchs both christian and muslim and other generic diety thingys.
One of the effects on what i choose to call thinking people is that all this damage to humanity and its assorted societies of this deluge of hypocritical prolitising and religious,moralising is that we tend to dismiss both the perpetrators and supplicants as well as the people like yourself who most likly do no harm.
It is a bit of the “if it looks like a wolf and smells like a wolf and has teeth like a wolf then it most likley is a wolf.”
My other complaint with so called “religious” people is that over the years a very large percentage of the most ruthless in business ,most unthanking to work for and generally morally corupt have been people who wor their religion on their shirt sleeves and went to church with pathetic regularity.
So Brad , what I am saying is that people like Pinky and I have what i would say are extenuating reasons for being a bit down on religitards and view our atheist opinions with more then a little warmth.

23 05 2010
brad

Fair enough James, to want to explore your spirituality is a human condition always has been,always will be, why is that?-just a quirk in our brains evoloution too make us socially compliant?,morally responsible?,perhaps some us recognize this ruse but but comply anyway?I wish it was this simple,but my life experiences point me too other conclusions.This was not something i’ve seeked or even wanted,but the way of things too me is too loud to ignore.I do wish sometimes i could see the world on a purely physical and rational plane as folks like Pinky and yourself can I dont feel sorry for you ,i envy you.

23 05 2010
James Hunter

Brad,
thank you. I do not feel enmity or sorrow for you and people like you. you appear to be a rational person